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DanTurksGhost

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« : August 15, 2007, 07:39:14 PM »

Shockingly, I agree with this statement. 

Hard to disagree with pure truth.

mjs020294

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« #1 : August 15, 2007, 05:26:09 PM »

I am listening to WDAE and SR is talking about the upcoming season.  He made a comment about Gruden that I found interesting.  He says when the Buccs are healthy they do well BUT Gruden doesn't seem to be capable of turning things around when things start to go wrong, i.e injuries.  He also went on to say Dungy was pretty good at dealing with adversity.

In my book a manager that can't handle changing circumstances is not a very good manager.....and that goes for any industry.

DISCUSS


** Disclaimer - the above thoughts are SR's not mine.


Itchalot

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« #2 : August 15, 2007, 05:28:13 PM »

SR has said that all along.


olafberserker

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« #3 : August 15, 2007, 05:29:58 PM »

I've said that all along.  Gruden makes good teams great, but not so much with those average or below teams.  Dungy's level head and demeanor is going to lend itself to less valleys, but most fans here would agree that that same demeanor kept us from reaching the peaks under him.

mjs020294

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« #4 : August 15, 2007, 05:33:00 PM »

I've said that all along. Gruden makes good teams great, but not so much with those average or below teams. Dungy's level head and demeanor is going to lend itself to less valleys, but most fans here would agree that that same demeanor kept us from reaching the peaks under him.

i have heard it said before.  the Fox guy that goes on with Duemig said Gruden's MO around NFL GMs is he is a guy that might get a good team over the hump but he isn't a great coach to build teams or do it longterm. 


alldaway

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« #5 : August 15, 2007, 05:34:16 PM »

Olafbersker

That sumps it up in a nutshell.

Dungy brought a level of moderate consistency.  In stark contrast Gruden has brought about extreme highs and lows.


Bayfisher

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« #6 : August 15, 2007, 05:34:28 PM »

    He also went on to say Dungy was pretty good at dealing with adversity.


 



I remember the Eagles games(era).

alldaway

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« #7 : August 15, 2007, 05:36:17 PM »

Yeah that is one statement I do not agree with.  Dungy's teams dealt with adversity well in October for example but when they were below .500 and had to scrap their way back up.

But adversity in the playoffs was definately not Tony's forte.


mjs020294

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« #8 : August 15, 2007, 05:36:52 PM »

He also went on to say Dungy was pretty good at dealing with adversity.

I remember the Eagles games(era).


He isn't talking about individual games.  We had bad starts and injuries with Dungy and he still managed to get us in or close to the playoffs.  Dungy just couldn't get us over the hump, and Gruden was the perfect fit in 2002.


redbeard10

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« #9 : August 15, 2007, 05:51:27 PM »

I've said that all along.  Gruden makes good teams great, but not so much with those average or below teams.  Dungy's level head and demeanor is going to lend itself to less valleys, but most fans here would agree that that same demeanor kept us from reaching the peaks under him.
I disagree. If an average team starts out well, Gruden is able to get it to overachieve. See the 2005 team for an example.



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« #10 : August 15, 2007, 05:52:46 PM »

He isn't talking about individual games.  We had bad starts and injuries with Dungy and he still managed to get us in or close to the playoffs.  Dungy just couldn't get us over the hump, and Gruden was the perfect fit in 2002.


Thus, if we come out of the gates 1-4, this season will be shot, done, over!!!



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« #11 : August 15, 2007, 05:53:12 PM »

Now wait a second....it was McKay that got us over the hump in 2002.

All sparring aside, there is some truth in what was stated.  Dungy IS a more level-headed guy than Gruden when it comes to "calm, cool, collected".  At least on the surface.  You have to know that Dungy was being torn apart inside.  

But let's discuss, as MJS has asked, others with similar "styles" as Gruden and Dungy.

Gruden Coach-alikes:

Bill Cowher would obviously fit into more of a Gruden mold than a Dungy.  And Cowher was quite successful in his run at PGH.
Insert Parcells' name in this category as well.  And Bill was rather successful
Tom Coughlin, after his stint with the Jags, has not been as successful, yet goes in this category.
Madden, in his day, was a rah-rah guy and quite successful.
Ditka is definitely here and has a few years with Chicago, but flopped in New Orleans
Holmgren, also successful, could go here.

Dungy Coach-Alikes

Tom Landry, and his career speaks for itself.
Bellichek, although more animated than Tony, still seems to fit the mold here and has obviously done well
Bill Walsh was more Dungy-esque, than Gruden-esque and we know his story.

Bottom line is that regardless of methodologies, they can both work.

Today's game and today's players have evolved into millionairres that did not exist, say 2-25 years ago.

Today's head coach has a monumental task before him.  Consider that at least half his roster makes more money than the coach and it isn't easy.




superbuc

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« #12 : August 15, 2007, 05:57:42 PM »


Not sure about this issue....his personality is up and down with the team's success/failure.  But, there are a lot of variables to achieve success (injuries, players - FA, players - draft).  

I seem to remember many folks tiring of the "we just have to execute" press conference each week.  

I like Gruden, but, if I were starting a team today, I'd look to play a more ball control style.  It seems we don't have an identity.  Gruden made a joke about the Gulf Coast Offense when he first got here....what the heck is it?  Why change the WCO that much?  The other great WCO teams used Craig/Rathman, Davis, and Green really well.  I remember when I was in DC before moving here early in the Dungy era watching on ESPN Sunday Night Football....there were a lot of plays with Dunn or Alstott catching a screen or short pass and "running for days".  

Decide what we are, script it, and dictate it.

olafberserker

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« #13 : August 15, 2007, 06:00:16 PM »

I've said that all along. Gruden makes good teams great, but not so much with those average or below teams. Dungy's level head and demeanor is going to lend itself to less valleys, but most fans here would agree that that same demeanor kept us from reaching the peaks under him.
I disagree. If an average team starts out well, Gruden is able to get it to overachieve. See the 2005 team for an example.

Not a bad point, but some would say we had a great defense that year and that is why we overachieved.

umguy1999

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« #14 : August 15, 2007, 06:04:26 PM »

Not to defend Gruden, but losing your starting QB (which by no means were great QB's) 2 years in a row is harder to overcome than the Pat's losing a CB or S.
If you look at the best teams in the last few years (say SB teams winners or losers) and compare them to our team in the last few years its not fair to compare.

Colts, Pats, Seahawks, Rams, Titans all had much better QB's than Gruden has had, in fact we have not had a QB as good as a 2002 Brad Johnson, including a 2003 Brad johnson !

I don't like our system I find it boring and I don't like Gruden, sorry but I just don't get him and don't like him, but I would not say he is more or less of a HC that can build a team than Dungy or any other coach. I think you have to look at the importance of the QB. A great & healthy QB is the most important part of a team, and that is the thing Gruden has never had here.

Its not his fault the ownership lets him have so much influance on personel, in his mind he is always right, every HC  thinks his was in the best way. I don't think its the coaches job to "build" a team with total autonomy, I think at most it should be 30% HC 20% OC, DC, Scouts and other coaches and 50% GM when it comes to personel. I think the problem is Gruden calls all the shots, and Allen just  crunches the numbers and gets to play around with utility players and such. If I am wrong on that then I guess its just Grudens fault. Who knows.

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