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LtFox

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#15 : August 18, 2007, 06:43:10 PM

Belicheck is the real deal. The real question is how did Belicheck win with Antowan Smith at RB and a WR corp with the names Charles Johnson, Curtis Jackson, David Patten, Terry Glenn, and Troy Brown. Belicheck does "more with less" than ANY coach in football. How many free agents have they lost over the years? They let them go because he can win with players others can't. If Belicheck coached the Colts they would have won about 5 years in a row.

Also, lets not forget that he won TWO additional Super Bowls as the Defensive Coordinator of the Giants.

1sparkybuc

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#16 : August 18, 2007, 07:55:10 PM

The point is this: no matter how great a coach is, if he doesn't have some degree of talent at QB, he's going nowhere. Gruden has had very little to work with over the last few years. My guess is that will soon change.

Switzer walked into a situation where the team was already assembled. He just had to take the reins.
Gruden took over an offense in complete disaray. He threw them together and made them a winner. Ask anyone on that Defense(with the possible exception of Rice) if Gruden had anything to do with their #1 ranking that year.

MiltonMack21

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#17 : August 18, 2007, 10:02:12 PM

1Sparky you are really reaching with that argument.


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#18 : August 18, 2007, 10:30:12 PM

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1Sparky you are really reaching with that argument.

I agree.

John Galt?

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#19 : August 19, 2007, 06:29:16 PM

Take Bob Greise away from Shula and he goes 9-0 with a backup and wins 2 playoff games, getting Greise back for the Superbowl where he set a record for fewest passes attempted and completed. The perfect season was done with a (old)backup QB. A great coach overcomes and adapts.

Belichek was great because his starting QB and former #1 overall pick Drew Bledsoe went down, and rather than panicking turned a 2nd yr 6th round backup QB into a Superbowl MVP.

Brian Billick won a SB with Trent Dilfer.

Dallas won a SB without a Head Coach

Vermeil won a SB with a backup former Arena Ball QB.

What these 5 teams and most the other SB teams had in common was a dominant OL and DL line. Every one of the above had a top 5 line on atleast one side if not both sides of the ball.  Put together the top OL and DL in the country and a dull hayseed from Louisiana Tech can QB a team to 4 Superbowls.



1sparkybuc

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#20 : August 19, 2007, 12:16:44 PM

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1Sparky you are really reaching with that argument.

I agree.
I'm not reaching at all.
Take Gruden out of the equation and the Bucs are still trying to just reach the SB, foget about winning one.
Johnson was the best QB Gruden has had here, and nobody would ever envision him in Canton.
Gruden lite a fire under the 2002 Defense and instructed them on how to dismantle the Raiduhs.

Like I said, I'm not reaching at all.

MiltonMack21

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#21 : August 19, 2007, 12:22:49 PM

Gruden walked into a great situation, with a GREAT defense. He tweaked the offense a tad bit, but that was it. His handprints are all over the offense now and we see what has happened.


Feel Real Good

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#22 : August 19, 2007, 02:50:06 PM

The point is this: no matter how great a coach is, if he doesn't have some degree of talent at QB, he's going nowhere. Gruden has had very little to work with over the last few years. My guess is that will soon change.
Maybe Belichick has fewer Super Bowls without Brady but there is little doubt in my mind the Patriots would still be a 10-12 win a season team. They have a top 5 offensive line and top 5 defensive line, which were drafted entirely by Belichick, and he's the best defensive gameplanner in the league. He's the real deal.

FRG is the most logical poster on this board.  You guys just don\'t like where the logical conclusions take you.



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#23 : August 19, 2007, 03:45:13 PM

Quote
1Sparky you are really reaching with that argument.

I agree.
I'm not reaching at all.
Take Gruden out of the equation and the Bucs are still trying to just reach the SB, foget about winning one.
Johnson was the best QB Gruden has had here, and nobody would ever envision him in Canton.
Gruden lite a fire under the 2002 Defense and instructed them on how to dismantle the Raiduhs.

Like I said, I'm not reaching at all.

You are indeed reaching!!!

 You give us any offense at all in 02 and we play for a championship. Gruden was in the right place at the right time but I BELIEVE a Mike Martz(and a few other names) could've given us enought pts to do some damage.

As i stated earlier,  who lives in "what-ifs"? What if you had been  a "XX" chromosome instead of an "XY"?

gone

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#24 : August 19, 2007, 03:47:50 PM

Spark, do you honestly believe that Gruden was responsible for the SB over the #1 ranked defense, and perhaps the 2nd greatest defense of all-time?? One thing you can never take away from Gruden is that he was the coach for the Bucs when we won the SB, but Barry Switzer was the coach when the Cowboys won one of theirs as well.


Ouch!!!

The cowboys were already a superbowl team IIRC.  We weren't


LtFox

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#25 : August 19, 2007, 05:45:53 PM

Quote
1Sparky you are really reaching with that argument.

I agree.
I'm not reaching at all.
Take Gruden out of the equation and the Bucs are still trying to just reach the SB, foget about winning one.
Johnson was the best QB Gruden has had here, and nobody would ever envision him in Canton.
Gruden lite a fire under the 2002 Defense and instructed them on how to dismantle the Raiduhs.

Like I said, I'm not reaching at all.

You're reaching. Gruden's genius didn't win the Super Bowl. I think he is a gifted offensive mind and teacher. But, to be honest, I think half a dozen different coaches could have taken us to the promised land with that defense. We didn't need a savior. We just needed someone that was going to produce SOME offense. We got that in Gruden.

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#26 : August 19, 2007, 05:54:55 PM

Take Belichick away from Brady, and you have Brian Griese.  Maybe. 

The fact that the best, or at worst 2nd best (Walsh), coach in the history of football is knocked in this board say it all about the quantity of Kool Aid consumed. 

LtFox

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#27 : August 19, 2007, 06:01:58 PM

Take Belichick away from Brady, and you have Brian Griese. Maybe.

The fact that the best, or at worst 2nd best (Walsh), coach in the history of football is knocked in this board say it all about the quantity of Kool Aid consumed.

Amen

1sparkybuc

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#28 : August 19, 2007, 06:53:37 PM

The point is this: no matter how great a coach is, if he doesn't have some degree of talent at QB, he's going nowhere. Gruden has had very little to work with over the last few years. My guess is that will soon change.
Maybe Belichick has fewer Super Bowls without Brady but there is little doubt in my mind the Patriots would still be a 10-12 win a season team. They have a top 5 offensive line and top 5 defensive line, which were drafted entirely by Belichick, and he's the best defensive gameplanner in the league. He's the real deal.
Hang Rich McKay around Belichick's neck and he gets run off like he did in Cleveland. Belichick has had better personnel and tons of cap space to work with. Thanks to McKay, the Bucs have had neither. Thanks to Bruce Allen, that situation is getting resolved. Gruden is finally getting something to work with.

CurtR1995

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#29 : August 19, 2007, 07:41:50 PM

The point is this: no matter how great a coach is, if he doesn't have some degree of talent at QB, he's going nowhere. Gruden has had very little to work with over the last few years. My guess is that will soon change.
Maybe Belichick has fewer Super Bowls without Brady but there is little doubt in my mind the Patriots would still be a 10-12 win a season team. They have a top 5 offensive line and top 5 defensive line, which were drafted entirely by Belichick, and he's the best defensive gameplanner in the league. He's the real deal.
Hang Rich McKay around Belichick's neck and he gets run off like he did in Cleveland. Belichick has had better personnel and tons of cap space to work with. Thanks to McKay, the Bucs have had neither. Thanks to Bruce Allen, that situation is getting resolved. Gruden is finally getting something to work with.

Allen isn't exactly setting the gold standard for drafting and FA pick ups to date.    They have had 4 drafts, 3 of which could have had an impact on their tandem 27-38 record. 

So the state of the Bucs is either Allen has picked up quality talent, and Gruden can't coach them up, or Allen has selected poor talent and Gruden has nothing to work with. 

Which is it?
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