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1sparkybuc

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#30 : August 19, 2007, 08:58:25 PM

The point is this: no matter how great a coach is, if he doesn't have some degree of talent at QB, he's going nowhere. Gruden has had very little to work with over the last few years. My guess is that will soon change.
Maybe Belichick has fewer Super Bowls without Brady but there is little doubt in my mind the Patriots would still be a 10-12 win a season team. They have a top 5 offensive line and top 5 defensive line, which were drafted entirely by Belichick, and he's the best defensive gameplanner in the league. He's the real deal.
Hang Rich McKay around Belichick's neck and he gets run off like he did in Cleveland. Belichick has had better personnel and tons of cap space to work with. Thanks to McKay, the Bucs have had neither. Thanks to Bruce Allen, that situation is getting resolved. Gruden is finally getting something to work with.

Allen isn't exactly setting the gold standard for drafting and FA pick ups to date. They have had 4 drafts, 3 of which could have had an impact on their tandem 27-38 record.

So the state of the Bucs is either Allen has picked up quality talent, and Gruden can't coach them up, or Allen has selected poor talent and Gruden has nothing to work with.

Which is it?

What part of "getting resolved" don't you understand? 5 or 6 positions, on offense alone, will have new players starting. It is possible the Defense could have a similar number. I can't recall a shakeup this drastic ever, certainly not in the last decade. There will be some busts in this bunch, but there will be some that work out for the best for Gruden AND the Bucs. You will be frustrated and Buc fans will be happy. Next year Allen will sign more free agents to fill the holes that are left. He will have the cap space to deal with any player available. How long has it been since the Bucs have been able to do that? Not in this century, thanks to you know who.

You should really become an Insider and read JF's last FF. You might learn something, but then again, you might not.

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#31 : August 19, 2007, 09:08:30 PM

Take Trent Dilfer away from Billick...



MiltonMack21

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#32 : August 19, 2007, 09:19:23 PM

The point is this: no matter how great a coach is, if he doesn't have some degree of talent at QB, he's going nowhere. Gruden has had very little to work with over the last few years. My guess is that will soon change.
Maybe Belichick has fewer Super Bowls without Brady but there is little doubt in my mind the Patriots would still be a 10-12 win a season team. They have a top 5 offensive line and top 5 defensive line, which were drafted entirely by Belichick, and he's the best defensive gameplanner in the league. He's the real deal.
Hang Rich McKay around Belichick's neck and he gets run off like he did in Cleveland. Belichick has had better personnel and tons of cap space to work with. Thanks to McKay, the Bucs have had neither. Thanks to Bruce Allen, that situation is getting resolved. Gruden is finally getting something to work with.

Allen isn't exactly setting the gold standard for drafting and FA pick ups to date. They have had 4 drafts, 3 of which could have had an impact on their tandem 27-38 record.

So the state of the Bucs is either Allen has picked up quality talent, and Gruden can't coach them up, or Allen has selected poor talent and Gruden has nothing to work with.

Which is it?

What part of "getting resolved" don't you understand? 5 or 6 positions, on offense alone, will have new players starting. It is possible the Defense could have a similar number. I can't recall a shakeup this drastic ever, certainly not in the last decade. There will be some busts in this bunch, but there will be some that work out for the best for Gruden AND the Bucs. You will be frustrated and Buc fans will be happy. Next year Allen will sign more free agents to fill the holes that are left. He will have the cap space to deal with any player available. How long has it been since the Bucs have been able to do that? Not in this century, thanks to you know who.

You should really become an Insider and read JF's last FF. You might learn something, but then again, you might not.
I get by the gist of your posts that Gruden is not to blame for any of this at all?


1sparkybuc

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#33 : August 20, 2007, 12:28:05 PM

The point is this: no matter how great a coach is, if he doesn't have some degree of talent at QB, he's going nowhere. Gruden has had very little to work with over the last few years. My guess is that will soon change.
Maybe Belichick has fewer Super Bowls without Brady but there is little doubt in my mind the Patriots would still be a 10-12 win a season team. They have a top 5 offensive line and top 5 defensive line, which were drafted entirely by Belichick, and he's the best defensive gameplanner in the league. He's the real deal.
Hang Rich McKay around Belichick's neck and he gets run off like he did in Cleveland. Belichick has had better personnel and tons of cap space to work with. Thanks to McKay, the Bucs have had neither. Thanks to Bruce Allen, that situation is getting resolved. Gruden is finally getting something to work with.

Allen isn't exactly setting the gold standard for drafting and FA pick ups to date. They have had 4 drafts, 3 of which could have had an impact on their tandem 27-38 record.

So the state of the Bucs is either Allen has picked up quality talent, and Gruden can't coach them up, or Allen has selected poor talent and Gruden has nothing to work with.

Which is it?

What part of "getting resolved" don't you understand? 5 or 6 positions, on offense alone, will have new players starting. It is possible the Defense could have a similar number. I can't recall a shakeup this drastic ever, certainly not in the last decade. There will be some busts in this bunch, but there will be some that work out for the best for Gruden AND the Bucs. You will be frustrated and Buc fans will be happy. Next year Allen will sign more free agents to fill the holes that are left. He will have the cap space to deal with any player available. How long has it been since the Bucs have been able to do that? Not in this century, thanks to you know who.

You should really become an Insider and read JF's last FF. You might learn something, but then again, you might not.
I get by the gist of your posts that Gruden is not to blame for any of this at all?
My saintly old mother used to say "You can't make chicken soup out of chicken sh!t." Gruden has done the best he could with what he had to work with, and what he had to work with was not always his decision. He has made mistakes and I have been critical of several of them, but calling for his head when the team is just now competing in free agency, is not right. Dungy would have not reached the SB with this team. Belichick would have struggled here. There's no Tom Brady on this roster

Every coach and every GM makes mistakes, and they don't make them without advisement. I don't expect perfection. I do expect dedication and effort, and nobody can accuse Gruden of lacking that. I know he is working as hard as he can to make the Bucs competitive and balanced. I believe '08 will be a banner year for acquiring some critical pieces to the puzzle. We did very well this year. We have some players and some real competition for starting jobs. Guden and Allen deserve some credit for that. This is not Dungy's team anymore, and it certainly is not Rich McKay's.

The team was 11-5 two years ago. With a decent QB they would have won at least 4 more last year. We all know who picked Simms and a rookie QB will struggle. Just so you know, I favored Rattay over Gradkowski. I felt that starting a rookie was giving up on the season.

I'll take our trophy case over any other team in the NFC over the last 5 years. I see a new foundation being built for the next decade of Buccaneers, and not just on Defense. Gruden and Allen made the Raiduhs respectable. I believe they will be remembered more for what they accomplish here in the next few years.

You really don't want to hear me complaining how Bill Cowher is just winning with Guden's team. Deep down I know you don't.

1sparkybuc

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#34 : August 20, 2007, 01:04:28 PM

Bill would have been able to find viable starters in the 4th 5th and 6th round. Something Gruden has not been able to do.

"Bill" is a HC, not a scout.

CurtR1995

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#35 : August 20, 2007, 12:54:55 PM

We just want to see the Bucs start winning again.  Your whinning will not dampen my joy when Cowher/BB/Ferentz/TBA wins with Gruden's team. 

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#36 : August 20, 2007, 12:55:46 PM

Quote
My saintly old mother used to say "You can't make chicken soup out of chicken sh!t." Gruden has done the best he could with what he had to work with, and what he had to work with was not always his decision. He has made mistakes and I have been critical of several of them, but calling for his head when the team is just now competing in free agency, is not right. Dungy would have not reached the SB with this team. Belichick would have struggled here. There's no Tom Brady on this roster

Every coach and every GM makes mistakes, and they don't make them without advisement. I don't expect perfection. I do expect dedication and effort, and nobody can accuse Gruden of lacking that. I know he is working as hard as he can to make the Bucs competitive and balanced. I believe '08 will be a banner year for acquiring some critical pieces to the puzzle. We did very well this year. We have some players and some real competition for starting jobs. Guden and Allen deserve some credit for that. This is not Dungy's team anymore, and it certainly is not Rich McKay's.

The team was 11-5 two years ago. With a decent QB they would have won at least 4 more last year. We all know who picked Simms and a rookie QB will struggle. Just so you know, I favored Rattay over Gradkowski. I felt that starting a rookie was giving up on the season.

I'll take our trophy case over any other team in the NFC over the last 5 years. I see a new foundation being built for the next decade of Buccaneers, and not just on Defense. Gruden and Allen made the Raiduhs respectable. I believe they will be remembered more for what they accomplish here in the next few years.

You really don't want to hear me complaining how Bill Cowher is just winning with Guden's team. Deep down I know you don't.
Quote

Belicheck would have struggled here? Keep dreaming....

CurtR1995

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#37 : August 20, 2007, 12:59:17 PM

The better line is: "Gruden has done the best he could with what he had to work with"

4-12 is the *Best* Gruden could do after 3 drafts?  Really?  Gruden lovers are you sure you want this to be your mantra?

So, it has been stated over and over and over by the Gruden fans themselves that Gruden isn't capable of coaching up a roster, only winning when handed a fully loaded roster of Pro Bowl talent.  Being the case, shouldn't the Bucs be looking to get a real GM and Personnel man instead of just a contracts guy in Allen?

MiltonMack21

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#38 : August 20, 2007, 01:00:11 PM

Bill would have been able to find viable starters in the 4th 5th and 6th round. Something Gruden has not been able to do.


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#39 : August 20, 2007, 01:06:17 PM

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Ferentz

He would be a good option.

Feel Real Good

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#40 : August 20, 2007, 01:11:09 PM

My saintly old mother used to say "You can't make chicken soup out of chicken sh!t." Gruden has done the best he could with what he had to work with, and what he had to work with was not always his decision. He has made mistakes and I have been critical of several of them, but calling for his head when the team is just now competing in free agency, is not right. Dungy would have not reached the SB with this team. Belichick would have struggled here. There's no Tom Brady on this roster
Every player on the offense was selected by Jon Gruden.

Every coach and every GM makes mistakes, and they don't make them without advisement. I don't expect perfection. I do expect dedication and effort, and nobody can accuse Gruden of lacking that. I know he is working as hard as he can to make the Bucs competitive and balanced. I believe '08 will be a banner year for acquiring some critical pieces to the puzzle. We did very well this year. We have some players and some real competition for starting jobs. Guden and Allen deserve some credit for that. This is not Dungy's team anymore, and it certainly is not Rich McKay's.
I understand everyone makes mistakes, but where are Guden and Allen's home runs to balance the strikeouts?

FRG is the most logical poster on this board.  You guys just don\'t like where the logical conclusions take you.

MiltonMack21

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#41 : August 20, 2007, 01:12:05 PM

Bill would have been able to find viable starters in the 4th 5th and 6th round. Something Gruden has not been able to do.

"Bill" is a HC, not a scout.
Sparky if you don't think he has a STRONG say in it.... then I really don't know what to tell you.


CurtR1995

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#42 : August 20, 2007, 01:13:06 PM

I wanted him here for the last 3 years, but he is really tied to Iowa.  He is major attention to detail kind of HC.  FYI, who did Ferentz coach under?

1sparkybuc

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#43 : August 20, 2007, 01:14:09 PM

We just want to see the Bucs start winning again. Your whinning will not dampen my joy when Cowher/BB/Ferentz/TBA wins with Gruden's team.
No need for you to bring cheese with that whine. You're the complete package. Join the Insiders and read JF's last FF.

CurtR1995

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#44 : August 20, 2007, 01:16:49 PM

Honestly, if it is yet another Gruden is awesome, McKay is responsible for anything bad that will ever happen under Gruden, then I'll kindly take a pass on the PI.
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