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: November 07, 2006, 10:07:00 AM

No they sustained a lot of long scoring drives under Steckel. 

I cannot believe that we're talking about Steckel right now.  Argh!

Please...STOP!!!  ;)

DanTurksGhost

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#1 : November 07, 2006, 09:17:14 AM

This isn't a rookie QB problem since our offense has never outperformed Les Steckel's offense so this isn't new.

You're correct, it isn't. While Grads needs time to grow into his role, the main problem this team faces is lack of viable young players who should be maturing right now in their 4th-5th seasons. You have to blame that on lack of picks and very poor personnel decisions from 4-5 years back.

Hopefully this offseason will allow the Bucs to be players in FA and perhaps they can pluck a few of those guys who are coming into their own in their 5th year or so to make up for that.

alldaway

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#2 : November 07, 2006, 09:15:37 AM

There's not such a  crushing lack of talent that the offense should not be able to out perform the Shaun King led offense helmed by Steckel. This isn't a rookie QB problem since our offense has never outperformed Les Steckel's offense so this isn't new.


Quoted for truth and I agree with you 1000%. 

Les Steckel in one year did more than with less than what Gruden has been unable to do for a while.  I have seen so many other offenses in the league that have less to work with and have done more this year.

zellmiller

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#3 : November 07, 2006, 05:50:16 AM

My take when really looking at this team objectively is there is a LOT (Lack of Talent) on this team.    Broken down into three categories:
1. Played out and old....the biggest problem with the Defense is they used to be Undersized and Quick and young,  now they are small slow and old.
2. Young...the offense has Grads, Caddy, Clayton, Smith, the o-line except for sweaty butt,  that have very little NFL game experience.
3. Lack of depth due to VERY POOR DRAFTING  from McKay and a lack of draft picks, we should have veteran depth from the drafts of 2002 and before hand.  How many of these guys are A>.with the team,  B.Even in the freaking NFL: Look below:

2004:
1     Michael Clayton     Louisiana State       Starter
3    Marquis Cooper    Washington                      Scrub
4    Will Allen    Ohio State                               Starter
5    Jeb Terry    North Carolina                            Injury
6    Nate Lawrie    Yale                                       Scrub
7    Mark Jones    Tennessee                            Scrub
7    Casey Cramer    Dartmouth                         Scrub
7    Lenny Williams    Southern                                Scrub


2003:
2     Dewayne White     Louisville                            role player
3    Chris Simms    Texas                                      Hurt and goner
4    Lance Nimmo    West Virginia                           gone
4    Austin King    Northwestern                             gone
5    Sean Mahan    Notre Dame                            sucks
6    Torrie Cox    Pittsburgh                                   stinks
 


2002:
3       Marquis Walker     Michigan                     waste
4    Travis Stephens    Tennessee                 waste
5    Jermaine Phillips    Georgia                            Starter   
6    John Stamper    South Carolina                         wasted
7    Tim Wansley    Georgia                             wasted
7    Tracey Wistrom    Nebraska                           wasted
7    Aaron Lockett    Kansas State                          wasted   
7    Zack Quaccia    Stanford                              wasted
 
2001:
1     Kenyatta Walker     Florida     Bad Pick and Wasted 1st rounder
3    Dwight Smith    Akron                                       Gone
4    John Howell    Colorado State                             gone
5    Russ Hochstein    Nebraska                            gone
6    Jameel Cook    Illinois                                     gone
6    Ellis Wyms    Mississippi State                       starter
7    Dauntae Finger    North Carolina                                who
7    Than Merrill    Yale                                                 who
7    Joe Tafoya    Arizona                                          what


2000:
2     Cosey Coleman     Tennessee                      Dear god!!!!!
3    Nate Webster    Miami (FL)                  done and gone
5    James Whalen    Kentucky                          huh
6    David Gibson    USC                                     what

1999:
1     Anthony McFarland     Louisiana State       Over-rated
2    Shaun King    Tulane                                         what
3    Martin Gramatica    Kansas State                   AWOL   
4    Dexter Jackson    Florida State                                  jerk
6    Lamarr Glenn    Florida State                                 who
7    Robert Hunt    Virginia                                    who
7    Autry Denson    Notre Dame                                 who
7    Darnell McDonald    Kansas State                 dear god
7    Joe Hamilton    Georgia Tech                    Tearing up the AFL
 

6 years of drafts and 4 STARTERS...........ONLY 9 GUYS FROM THIS LIST EVEN ON THE TEAM AND VERY FEW EVEN IN THE FREAKING LEAGUE.   Put that with an Aging defense that has a majority of the salary cap invested in it,  and GIVEN AWAY 1 PICKS no wonder they suck.    THERE IS A LACK OF TALENT.
All I have heard from the Sports Radio Guys and the media, was KEEP THE DEFENSE TOGETHER, SIGN BRROKS, BARBER, RICE TO EXTENSIONS AT ALL COSTS.... well the chickens have come back to roost and the chickens are old.   We can't be a player in Free-Agency when you have no cap room from signing the Defense years after year.................and having no cap room.

Did coach Gruden suddenly forget how to coach???  When you have NO talent, what do you expect.

Huge ego, not a gruden guy,  doesn't use MIKE.

alldaway

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#4 : November 07, 2006, 07:48:24 AM

McKay has been gone for a while now so no I will not blame him at this point.  As far as talent is concerened the Bucs do have talent to work with.  People feel Gruden does not have the pieces on offense to work with his offense but I feel he has more than enough to be honest.  Les Steckel had less to work with and produced more.  With that said the young offense needs to be given some time to come together.

There is a lot of parity in the NFL becuase a lot of the teams with losing records do not lack (talent) if you notice (exeptions being the Titans and 49ers and even then you could make an arguement for both teams).  Basically it comes down to these two points.  When you win lack of talent is not an issue nor is lack of depth but when you lose lack of depth and lack of talent is magnified.  I do not think people feel that all of sudden that the Steelers lack talent or lack depth.

The defense has been ignored for a long time so it is not surpsing with the results to a degree.  With that said age has nothing to do with missed tackles and lack of gap responsibility.  Allen and Phillips nor Nece are over the hill and their play has been not good either along with the veterans. There is more to it than just age or lack of talent on defense.  Starting flat at the beggining of game is a motivational issue and this is where Gruden has to take the blame for the defense, offense, and special teams looking flat at the begging of games.  It has been an issue for many years now (even during the Bucs Super Bowl year) not just during the losing years and this year.


zellmiller

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#5 : November 07, 2006, 07:58:28 AM

He has to take some of the blame...look at his drafts.....God Aweful, not even a nugget to be found.  The best WR in the league IMHO  Steve Smith was a 3rd rounder.     IF WE ARE HONEST...THERE IS A  (LOT)  OF TALENT....................THAT IS LACK OF TALENT.

Huge ego, not a gruden guy,  doesn't use MIKE.

alldaway

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#6 : November 07, 2006, 08:01:52 AM

McKay has been gone for a while now and the Bucs have had 2 consecutive drafts with all their draft picks.  I am not seeing the lack of talent anymore that some are.  If Gruden is around for 2007 he will have a lot of cap space and four day one draft picks to work with.  Then the excuse of lack of talent can not be used anymore.

CurtR1995

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#7 : November 07, 2006, 08:34:29 AM

Read this weeks MMQB from Peter King.  The Saints have done it with rookies, all of which were readily available to the Bucs. 

Excuses are not valid, and the NFL is not built by men who make excuses, it is built by men who endure.  If Gruden and Allen were the types of men many of you claim they are, they would have thrived when times are tough. 

alldaway

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#8 : November 07, 2006, 09:05:19 AM

Read this weeks MMQB from Peter King.  The Saints have done it with rookies, all of which were readily available to the Bucs. 

Excuses are not valid, and the NFL is not built by men who make excuses, it is built by men who endure.  If Gruden and Allen were the types of men many of you claim they are, they would have thrived when times are tough. 

I like the Bucs rookie class from 2006.  I do not think anyone at this point would want to take Santonio Holmes over Davin Joseph.   The Saints under Mueller and Haslett drafted for BAP now that they drafted for need are enjoying greater success.   

Actually the Bucs rookie class is not the reason why the Bucs are losing.  But I agree that there is no excuses as the Bucs have Rookie of the year in Carnell Williams last year in the lineup and the offense is sputtering.  Some of that is youth but some of that falls on Gruden's shoulders as the OC.

I am not seeing the lack of talent arguement nor the arguement that the Bucs young players drafted in the last 2-3 years are not playing (Gradkowski,Carnell, Buenning, Smith, Clayton, Trueblood, Joseph).  The Bucs do have talent and have drafted talent.  At this point I am questioning the coaching not the talent. 



keeponbucn

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#9 : November 07, 2006, 08:46:24 AM

Read this weeks MMQB from Peter King. The Saints have done it with rookies, all of which were readily available to the Bucs.

Excuses are not valid, and the NFL is not built by men who make excuses, it is built by men who endure. If Gruden and Allen were the types of men many of you claim they are, they would have thrived when times are tough.


While the Saints have done it with some rookies, they have a vet running the offense which makes a huge difference. Don't act like the Saints are full of rookies. You've got your panties in a bunch because the Bucs aren't winning remember, it's the position you have your rookies that makes the difference.

naplesbuc

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#10 : November 07, 2006, 08:50:12 AM

Drew Brees vs. Aaron Brooks is the reason the Saints are where they are.  They also drafted some studs on the D-line with high draft picks.


keeponbucn

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#11 : November 07, 2006, 09:27:56 AM

This isn't a rookie QB problem since our offense has never outperformed Les Steckel's offense so this isn't new.

You're correct, it isn't. While Grads needs time to grow into his role, the main problem this team faces is lack of viable young players who should be maturing right now in their 4th-5th seasons. You have to blame that on lack of picks and very poor personnel decisions from 4-5 years back.

Hopefully this offseason will allow the Bucs to be players in FA and perhaps they can pluck a few of those guys who are coming into their own in their 5th year or so to make up for that.


Correct me if I'm wrong but King/Les had a pretty decent defense to work with didn't he? Makes a huge difference IMVHO. Les can suck on a nub.....

DanTurksGhost

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#12 : November 07, 2006, 09:29:31 AM

Les Steckel had less to work with and produced more.  With that said the young offense needs to be given some time to come together.

I'm not sure that I agree that he had "less to work with" when you consider he did have 3 Pro Bowlers on his offense that season, plus Keyshawn Johnson who didn't make the Pro Bowl but was coming off two consecutive Pro Bowls. On top of that, the Bucs defense intercepted the ball 25 times that year, giving the offense a lot more chances on short fields. I don't see any Pro Bowlers on the Bucs offense this year, nor do I see the defense playing anywhere NEAR like it did in 2000.

keeponbucn

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#13 : November 07, 2006, 09:32:55 AM

Les Steckel had less to work with and produced more. With that said the young offense needs to be given some time to come together.

I'm not sure that I agree that he had "less to work with" when you consider he did have 3 Pro Bowlers on his offense that season, plus Keyshawn Johnson who didn't make the Pro Bowl but was coming off two consecutive Pro Bowls. On top of that, the Bucs defense intercepted the ball 25 times that year, giving the offense a lot more chances on short fields. I don't see any Pro Bowlers on the Bucs offense this year, nor do I see the defense playing anywhere NEAR like it did in 2000.


bingo. People fail to think about how dominant that defense was. If the Bears can win with Kyle freaking Orton last year you know for damn sure King and Co could win or perform decent. It's simple, very simple here folks.

alldaway

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#14 : November 07, 2006, 09:37:00 AM

This isn't a rookie QB problem since our offense has never outperformed Les Steckel's offense so this isn't new.

You're correct, it isn't. While Grads needs time to grow into his role, the main problem this team faces is lack of viable young players who should be maturing right now in their 4th-5th seasons. You have to blame that on lack of picks and very poor personnel decisions from 4-5 years back.

Hopefully this offseason will allow the Bucs to be players in FA and perhaps they can pluck a few of those guys who are coming into their own in their 5th year or so to make up for that.


Correct me if I'm wrong but King/Les had a pretty decent defense to work with didn't he? Makes a huge difference IMVHO. Les can suck on a nub.....

The defense did not have to do much since the Bucs offense under Steckel had a high scoring percentage in the red zone.  Not only that but they were in the red zone (or green zone) often as well.

Les Steckel had less to work with and produced more.  With that said the young offense needs to be given some time to come together.

I'm not sure that I agree that he had "less to work with" when you consider he did have 3 Pro Bowlers on his offense that season, plus Keyshawn Johnson who didn't make the Pro Bowl but was coming off two consecutive Pro Bowls. On top of that, the Bucs defense intercepted the ball 25 times that year, giving the offense a lot more chances on short fields. I don't see any Pro Bowlers on the Bucs offense this year, nor do I see the defense playing anywhere NEAR like it did in 2000.

Keyshawn Johnson was on the team but after that who were the rest of the WR's? Karl Williams, Jacquez Green, and Reidel Anthony? 

Lorenzo Neal was and still is a very underrated blocking FB.  That one area that offense has an advantage over this offense.  But a TE who did the Bucs have? Hape, Moore, and Yoder?

Alstott and Dunn was the running game with Stecker thrown in.  Is Carnell that bad compared to Dunn?

Run blocking that unit was better than this current unit but it is not like it was loaded with talent either.
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