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keeponbucn

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#15 : November 07, 2006, 09:47:41 AM

This isn't a rookie QB problem since our offense has never outperformed Les Steckel's offense so this isn't new.

You're correct, it isn't. While Grads needs time to grow into his role, the main problem this team faces is lack of viable young players who should be maturing right now in their 4th-5th seasons. You have to blame that on lack of picks and very poor personnel decisions from 4-5 years back.

Hopefully this offseason will allow the Bucs to be players in FA and perhaps they can pluck a few of those guys who are coming into their own in their 5th year or so to make up for that.


Correct me if I'm wrong but King/Les had a pretty decent defense to work with didn't he? Makes a huge difference IMVHO. Les can suck on a nub.....

The defense did not have to do much since the Bucs offense under Steckel had a high scoring percentage in the red zone. Not only that but they were in the red zone (or green zone) often as well.


The reason that offense was in the redzone to have that success was because of the defense. It's very, very, very simple.

keeponbucn

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#16 : November 07, 2006, 09:50:08 AM

I'm not sure that I agree that he had "less to work with" when you consider he did have 3 Pro Bowlers on his offense that season, plus Keyshawn Johnson who didn't make the Pro Bowl but was coming off two consecutive Pro Bowls.

Who, so let's check this at the door:

King was QB <> Simms or Grads frankly
Dunn > Caddy (slight)
Galloway, Clayton, Ike > KJ, Quez and Green (slight)
Becht, Smith > Moore, Hape
OL <> OL since both are a mess unless you forget Hegamin/Odom, McDaniel, Christy, Middleton and Wunsch/Pierson and that was the past their time Christy and McDaniel not the good ones.



you're leaving out the defense Dal. It's not the same thing, you can't compare just the offenses. That defense in 1999-2001 with King and Brad Johnson was REDICLOUS.

alldaway

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#17 : November 07, 2006, 09:58:54 AM

This isn't a rookie QB problem since our offense has never outperformed Les Steckel's offense so this isn't new.

You're correct, it isn't. While Grads needs time to grow into his role, the main problem this team faces is lack of viable young players who should be maturing right now in their 4th-5th seasons. You have to blame that on lack of picks and very poor personnel decisions from 4-5 years back.

Hopefully this offseason will allow the Bucs to be players in FA and perhaps they can pluck a few of those guys who are coming into their own in their 5th year or so to make up for that.


Correct me if I'm wrong but King/Les had a pretty decent defense to work with didn't he? Makes a huge difference IMVHO. Les can suck on a nub.....

The defense did not have to do much since the Bucs offense under Steckel had a high scoring percentage in the red zone. Not only that but they were in the red zone (or green zone) often as well.


The reason that offense was in the redzone to have that success was because of the defense. It's very, very, very simple.

No they sustained a lot of long scoring drives under Steckel. 

alldaway

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#18 : November 07, 2006, 10:08:07 AM

No they sustained a lot of long scoring drives under Steckel. 

I cannot believe that we're talking about Steckel right now.  Argh!

Please...STOP!!!  ;)

Well it has come to this and Steckel's offense is the gold standard around here.   ;)

keeponbucn

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#19 : November 07, 2006, 10:12:39 AM

you're leaving out the defense Dal. It's not the same thing, you can't compare just the offenses. That defense in 1999-2001 with King and Brad Johnson was REDICLOUS.

The question isn't how good is the team, it is how good is the offense. You can make a lot of ancillary arguments about not being down and junk in terms of good dfeense helps yur offense (explain Indy then though) but the bottom line is the offense here has stunk on ice for years now and until this year those sucktastic offenses were playing with a top 10 defense so that excuse only washes this year. I mean last year we had the #1 defense and were 20th in points and 23rd in yards.

It all goes back to continuity at the QB position. The reason the offenses look the same in terms of yardage is because we had Dilfer, King, then Johnson. Look at what Gruden has had, Johnson, R Johnson, Simms, SoB, Simms, Grads.

The offense has suck donkey balls but it can all fall back on the QB position. This offense is predicated on an experienced QB leading the way and Gruden hasn't had a bunch of that here. I'm not saying Gurden isn't at fault for this putrid offensive production but there are reasons for it.

DanTurksGhost

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#20 : November 07, 2006, 10:16:06 AM

Dunn > Caddy (slight)
Galloway, Clayton, Ike > KJ, Quez and Green (slight)
Becht, Smith > Moore, Hape
OL <> OL since both are a mess unless you forget Hegamin/Odom, McDaniel, Christy, Middleton and Wunsch/Pierson and that was the past their time Christy and McDaniel not the good ones.

I've really got to disagree with some of your assessments. Dunn was in his fourth season and was significantly better than Cadillac Williams at that point. Significantly better. Not only did he rush for nearly 1200 yards, but he was big as a receiver out of the backfield catching over 40 balls AND despite his small size was huge in pass protection.

I really would have loved to have seen Dunn here under Gruden.

Christy was the smartest OC this team has probably ever had, and McDaniel's vet leadership was unmeasurably valuable. On top of that, Middleton was the nastiest OL this team has had in memory, and losing him because McKay didn't like his attitude was a big loss to our line. While the raw talent of the OL may be equal or better now, those two rookies aren't experienced enough to match the overall performance of that OL from 2000.

Yeah, they had the #1 defense last year (statistically #1 in yardage, #8 in points allowed) but only managed 17 INT's versus 25 INT's in 2000. You think that a defense grabbing 8 more INT's doesn't make a difference to your offense?

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#21 : November 07, 2006, 10:27:26 AM

Christy and McDaniel had experience but both were in the twilights of their careers.  The only OL that was very good was Middleton.  Losing Middleton and Neal in one season was a huge blow in the Bucs ability to run the football.  But Steckel's offense was not only about the run.  He moved Shaun around with play action passes and boot legs.  Steckel's offense was not a bombs away offense as it was a dink and dunk offense with a good running game.    Steckel also mixed up the play calling and kept defenses on their toes even with the limitations of Shaun King.  King had 18 passing TD's I believe and 5 rushing TD's.  That offense was not prolific nor was it dominating but it did generate points.

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#22 : November 07, 2006, 10:33:09 AM

The bottom line is that you can nitpick about with this but Les Steckel is not in the NFL anymore and he took a set of talent that, let's take your scenario, was slightly better than what we've had here and got much better results than Gruden has. Gruden's raison d'etre was his brilliant offensive mind. That mind should be good enough to out coach a current HS coach.

I liked Steckel, particularly in the red zone. But I did have to take issue with the "more with less". He did more, but he did it with a little more (as of right now), IMO.

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#23 : November 07, 2006, 10:38:51 AM

The talent level on this team is not what is should be.  But that doesn't mean it isn't sufficient to do better under a coach who is supposed to be good at offense.
Defense makes a difference.  Rankings based on yards/game and points/game get skewed when your D is giving you alot of tries.  Even last year our D spent a huge amount of time on the field, we couldn't stop 3rd and long.  So I'd say the O of Steckel got more tries and better position than ours last year.  Still, that doesn't cover the ineptness of this offense last year and this.
It's basicly 2 main things, and Two minor medium:
1) QB We haven't had a solid QB the whole run.  Brad basicly imploded, he had to go.  After a couple of tries, we serttled on greise, who never lost his knack for the killer pick.  His injury cleared the way for Simms, who played so-so but with a few flashes -- and then imploded this year.  Now we have a rookie.  THis all makes for a very very inconsistent O.
2) The line.  It's just been god-awful and to be honest I blame Muir 100% on that.  He wasn't hired by Jon, God alone know why he still has a job.  We've faced patchwork lines this year that performed better than ours.  We've made almost no progress there and what little we HAVE seen came after Kromer and Kromer-type linemen.
minor--
a) Defensively we're not getting the O al lot of time and giving them terrible position.  Not the main reason, but can't be neglected.
b) Timing/coincidence:  Caddy is hitting a slump that is fairly common.  Will Allen now has his second position coach in his first 2 years.  Clayton is a mystery, all the reasons we drafted him and all the things we expected after 04 are gone.  It seems like an extended slump.  We've got a brutal schedule - we made the best of a weak schedule last year and are paying for it with a brutal one this year.  Some key injuries - starting LG, Starting QB, Starting CB, damaged MLB, starting RT (and don't think True was expected to start, he wasn't).  Now all that coincidence together may or may not = one of the major points, but all combined it's a heavy dose.

There are really only 2 things to do:
Fire Muir
Wait.  Wait for Grads to develop, DJ, True, Stovall, etc also.  Wait for Beunning to get healthy.  Wait for our first FA and a full draft.  Yes, that's where we are.

PS, firing Gruden won't fix anything.  Firing Muir might.
PPS, anyone else notice that Gru looked like he was gonna choke in his Press conf when he had to say Mahan was a "pretty good player"


CurtR1995

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#24 : November 07, 2006, 10:42:02 AM

Sure Steckel was Coryell compared to Gruden, but how about Richard Williamson?  In 1991, the Bucs averaged 250 yards per game and 1.4 TD's per game on offense.

Gruden's 2006 Bucs are averagings 250.5 yards per game and 1.25 offensive TD's per game. 

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#25 : November 07, 2006, 03:48:05 PM

PPS, anyone else notice that Gru looked like he was gonna choke in his Press conf when he had to say Mahan was a "pretty good player"



I don't believe much of what Gruden says.  In his time here, he has said a lot things he hasn't backed up, like putting losses on missing key players to injury, then not using them when the players return to the line up.  I think Gruden is in over his head.  He is a young coach, therefore, doesn't have the experience as the Parcels and other old timers.  Gruden will probably be a great coach as time goes on and he faces more situations that build his experience library.  Many may not agree, but I submit the past several years records as proof. 

DanTurksGhost

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#26 : November 07, 2006, 03:54:14 PM

He is a young coach, therefore, doesn't have the experience as the Parcels and other old timers.

15 years as a coach in the NFL isn't enough experience?

Many may not agree, but I submit the past several years records as proof. 

Are you including last year's 11-win season and division title among your proof of failure over the past several seasons?

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#27 : November 07, 2006, 05:51:19 PM

Not enough as a head coach.  I think he has trouble with finding answers for issues that contribute to loosing.  Maybe, he hasn't dealt with that much.  Any of us that have been around for a while look back at our jobs and would have done some things different since learning from experience.

Yes.  Our schedule was rather light last year, but the schedule is, what it is.

I'm not satisfied with the results of 03, 04, & 06.  Maybe others are, but I'm not.  That's all I'm saying.  I'm not satisfied with the teams performance since Gruden has been here (other than the SB & 05).  If my success rate at work was 40%, my employer would my former employer.

TURBO

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#28 : November 07, 2006, 06:38:38 PM

My take when really looking at this team objectively is there is a LOT (Lack of Talent) on this team. Broken down into three categories:
1. Played out and old....the biggest problem with the Defense is they used to be Undersized and Quick and young, now they are small slow and old.
2. Young...the offense has Grads, Caddy, Clayton, Smith, the o-line except for sweaty butt, that have very little NFL game experience.
3. Lack of depth due to VERY POOR DRAFTING from McKay and a lack of draft picks, we should have veteran depth from the drafts of 2002 and before hand. How many of these guys are A>.with the team, B.Even in the freaking NFL: Look below:

2004:
1    Michael Clayton    Louisiana State     Starter
3    Marquis Cooper    Washington     Scrub
4    Will Allen    Ohio State     Starter
5    Jeb Terry    North Carolina     Injury
6    Nate Lawrie    Yale     Scrub
7    Mark Jones    Tennessee     Scrub
7    Casey Cramer    Dartmouth     Scrub
7    Lenny Williams    Southern Scrub


2003:
2    Dewayne White    Louisville     role player
3    Chris Simms    Texas     Hurt and goner
4    Lance Nimmo    West Virginia     gone
4    Austin King    Northwestern     gone
5    Sean Mahan    Notre Dame     sucks
6    Torrie Cox    Pittsburgh     stinks
 


2002:
3 Marquis Walker    Michigan     waste
4    Travis Stephens    Tennessee     waste
5    Jermaine Phillips    Georgia Starter   
6    John Stamper    South Carolina     wasted
7    Tim Wansley    Georgia     wasted
7    Tracey Wistrom    Nebraska     wasted
7    Aaron Lockett    Kansas State wasted   
7    Zack Quaccia    Stanford     wasted
 
2001:
1    Kenyatta Walker    Florida    Bad Pick and Wasted 1st rounder
3    Dwight Smith    Akron     Gone
4    John Howell    Colorado State     gone
5    Russ Hochstein    Nebraska     gone
6    Jameel Cook    Illinois     gone
6    Ellis Wyms    Mississippi State     starter
7    Dauntae Finger    North Carolina     who
7    Than Merrill    Yale     who
7    Joe Tafoya    Arizona what


2000:
2    Cosey Coleman    Tennessee     Dear god!!!!!
3    Nate Webster    Miami (FL)     done and gone
5    James Whalen    Kentucky     huh
6    David Gibson    USC     what

1999:
1    Anthony McFarland    Louisiana State     Over-rated
2    Shaun King    Tulane     what
3    Martin Gramatica    Kansas State AWOL   
4    Dexter Jackson    Florida State     jerk
6    Lamarr Glenn    Florida State     who
7    Robert Hunt    Virginia     who
7    Autry Denson    Notre Dame     who
7    Darnell McDonald    Kansas State dear god
7    Joe Hamilton    Georgia Tech     Tearing up the AFL
 

6 years of drafts and 4 STARTERS...........ONLY 9 GUYS FROM THIS LIST EVEN ON THE TEAM AND VERY FEW EVEN IN THE FREAKING LEAGUE. Put that with an Aging defense that has a majority of the salary cap invested in it, and GIVEN AWAY 1 PICKS no wonder they suck. THERE IS A LACK OF TALENT.
All I have heard from the Sports Radio Guys and the media, was KEEP THE DEFENSE TOGETHER, SIGN BRROKS, BARBER, RICE TO EXTENSIONS AT ALL COSTS.... well the chickens have come back to roost and the chickens are old. We can't be a player in Free-Agency when you have no cap room from signing the Defense years after year.................and having no cap room.

Did coach Gruden suddenly forget how to coach??? When you have NO talent, what do you expect.

awesome post...


DanTurksGhost

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#29 : November 07, 2006, 06:38:59 PM

If my success rate at work was 40%, my employer would my former employer.

His success rate in Super Bowls is 100%, so that gives him special standing with his employers. It's not a free pass for life, but it gives him more room than others may have. Additionally, his employer, unlike many casual fans, understands the circumstances that have inevitably led to the current conditions. They will, as they should, give him time to work through it, which means he's got next year at least.
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