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#15 : August 29, 2007, 08:49:17 PM

Why would anyone still be bringing up Deese, Garner and Steussie? Guys who were signed in a last ditch effort to try to win a superbowl prior to our talent getting too old to win one....

I haven't seen ANY signings like those in years. I can't blame them for trying to win one last ring. It didn't work, they changed course and started rebuilding.

With all due respect, those backing Gruden bring up the trades involving Key or Kenyatta ALL the time.

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#16 : August 29, 2007, 08:59:41 PM

Why would anyone still be bringing up Deese, Garner and Steussie?   Guys who were signed in a last ditch effort to try to win a superbowl prior to our talent getting too old to win one....

I haven't seen ANY signings like those in years.    I can't blame them for trying to win one last ring.   It didn't work, they changed course and started rebuilding.

So it's OK to overpay as long as you're trying to get one last ring? If you're trying to win one last ring how about keeping your core who helped you win the first ring.

From 12 Pro Bowlers to 0-We got hosed alright




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#17 : August 29, 2007, 09:00:19 PM

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/20497482/

for Born

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#18 : August 29, 2007, 09:05:44 PM

Bring up the superbowl year, and you're living in the past...  bring up Charlie Garner, and it is a contemporary view on Gruden and Allen's inability to effectively staff a team through free agency...

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#19 : August 29, 2007, 11:19:45 PM

BornaBuc and Feel Real Good - In reference to Fab 2., this past year's free agent class was quite mediocre. We saw several "average" to "good" players get "great" to "excellent" money. I feel the Bucs showed some good fiscal responsibility in not overpaying for mediocre talent like other teams did and noted it. If a player like Leonard Davis or Eric Steinbach bombs in Dallas or Cleveland, respectively, that's a cap killer. If Luke Petitgout or Kevin Carter bomb in Tampa Bay, they can be cut without much in the way of a negative ramification.

CurtR1995 - I'm not cheering on the lightweight passing game at all. I'm not endorsing Gruden's proposed game plan of pass-first. I'm simply offering up some analysis of what I believe will unfold this season when it comes to the run-pass ratio to start games this fall. Allen gets credit for structuring contracts wisely so if a player bombs, they don't kill the cap. He uses roster bonuses and incentives a lot more wisely than his predecessor did. Part of good cap management is to not overspend, and that is something Allen hasn't done since his acquisition of Deese, Garner and Steussie. He's learned his lesson and hasn't repeated the mistakes he made. We'll have to wait and see if this free agent crop yields big results or doesn't. We'll know by December one way or another.

If Gruden decides to make this a pass first team with a young OLine and one quality WR, he will not retain his job.  His personnel is not suited for a pass first game plan.  Quite frankly, very few teams can survive on a 40--25 pass run ratio.  If SR is right in his analysis, this will be a very disappointing year.  We won while he was here with a pound the rock mentality.  This limp back to the defense passing game will simply not work. 

Allen's job is to maximize his resources.  His drafts have been uninspiring, and his FA signings have been bland to downright silly.  His lose lose one year and out contract style cost us Gold and even Griese (not that I was that excited about him).  He has shown that while he is capable of turning a sly phrase about other GM's, he hasn't shown that he can do it himself.    In short, I see a lot of talk out of him, while only offering excuses for his lack of roster building skills. 

Adams, in fairness, was the right choice at 4.  It is very tough to trade for an elite pass rusher, and the best use of a #4 pick is to pick up a premium position (QB/LT/RDE).  They made the right call in taking Adams there. 

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#20 : August 30, 2007, 12:28:42 AM

I'm glad you could educate us Curt. Maybe you should be the GM.

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#21 : August 30, 2007, 01:40:08 AM

If that free article was designed to compel us non PI folks to subscribe, that really missed the mark. I am tired cheering on the lightweight passing game plan and the excuse machine.

Allen doesn't get credit for lowering the cap when all he did was allow the star's contracts to expire and backfilled their roster spots with low level talent. You get credit for being a cap wizard when you lower the cap AND maintain or increase the talent of the roster.
I'd be curious to know when was the last time you cheered on anything about the Bucs. All I have ever seen you do is attack and critisize. The MB at Bucs.com better suits you. It seems to be moderated by trolls. Perfection is not possible in the NFL. Gruden and Allen will make mistakes. They will also win again in the very near future. They won 11 games with Griese and Simms two years ago. Garcia and McCown are an upgrade over those two.

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#22 : August 30, 2007, 09:19:30 AM

BornaBuc and Feel Real Good - In reference to Fab 2., this past year's free agent class was quite mediocre. We saw several "average" to "good" players get "great" to "excellent" money. I feel the Bucs showed some good fiscal responsibility in not overpaying for mediocre talent like other teams did and noted it. If a player like Leonard Davis or Eric Steinbach bombs in Dallas or Cleveland, respectively, that's a cap killer. If Luke Petitgout or Kevin Carter bomb in Tampa Bay, they can be cut without much in the way of a negative ramification.
Thank you for responding and I agree. My point was a lot of people on here act like free agent money will solve all the team's problems when history shows very few premier players switch teams and when they do they get a ton of money. The only legitimately high end talent from the 2005 class who changed teams were Edge James, Plax Burress, Jermane Mayberry, John Abraham, Pat Williams, Corey Simon, and Charles Woodson, and virtually every single one of those players had some sort of major question mark regarding age, maturity, or injury. The rest were all Kevin Carter, Luke Petitgout level players at best, which the Bucs have been able to afford all along. And then the Bucs would have to compete with 15-20 other teams with cap room. I just think it is short sighted the way people on here think free agency will be the end of the rainbow when history shows you win with the players you draft because you don't let the really good players get away.

FRG is the most logical poster on this board.  You guys just don\'t like where the logical conclusions take you.
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#23 : August 30, 2007, 09:43:14 AM

SR-Thanks for what you do in covering the Bucs. I listened to your radio show last week filling in for the big dog and today as well as many weeks prior. I did have a subscription last year(you can check that) but I got extremely busy with work and really didn't make time to read the magazine and when the ownership and website changed over I didn't go back and change my setting. So no, I'm not an insider. At this point I appreciate the way we're treated here as apposed to the official Bucs site message board. So again, thanks for all you do.

I know that you are just offering up your professional advice on what to expect and what is happening at camp and practices that most of us don't have time to go to as well as access to. I have to say though that at times I disagree with your analysis of certain things. This offseason I thought that we did an excellent job signing Garcia because without Simms being healthy we would have been in serious trouble. I like the signing of June as well. He fits the defense and is the first linebacker IMO that can take over for Derrick Brooks kinda like Brooks took over for Nickerson as the leader of the LB core. So here's what I have a problem with...Deese, garner, and Steussie were not big name or talent signings. They were just signings that Allen overpaid. Saying that he learned from this is only half right. The way it appears to me is that he just won't spend money now. There's a difference between not spending money and not spending money on quality. Deese was old, Garner was hurt, and Steussie was hurt and had a bad history of penalties. What does Leonard Davis have to do with any of these guys. He's a big, physical, complete OT who will help the Cowboys as long as he doesn't get hurt. I just don't think Gruden/Allen have learned from their mistakes. They still haven't changed the way they do business after several years of losing. Gruden won't change the way he calls plays, bring in another offensive coordinator to assist him, or try and develop talent. A good recent example is Caddy. One bad year and he's in the doghouse evidently. The number of balls thrown to Clayton was decreased substially because of a couple of drops and now he looks to be out the door. Simms got hurt and he's out the door. It goes on and on.

Pass happy offense-I know this isn't your choice, but instead it's what your reporting as your opinion of what might happen this year. Haven't we tried this before? Brad Johnson had more attempts in this dink and dunk offense in 2003 then any other QB in Bucs history and we stunk. Griese ranks as one of the highest in Buccaneers history in attempts in a season as well and we stunk. The only season that we have a winning record since 2002 was 2005 and we depended on the run and the pass. IMO if we start throwing it around again Garcia is going to get killed and we are still going to stink. IMO Gruden doesn't know how to win with this much power. No doubt he was a great motivator in 2002 but he's trying to do everything and it's not going to work.

You bring up some valid points, BornaBuc, and I respect your differing viewpoints. I will point out that Leonard Davis got $16 million in guaranteed money to play right guard, which is an awful lot for a guy who hasn't sniffed a Pro Bowl yet and has failed as a OT in Arizona and Dallas. To put that in perspective, the collective signing bonuses paid to Steussie ($4 million), Garner ($3.7 million) and Deese ($2.475 million) was only a little over $10 million. Yes, those signings weren't good and didn't help their salary cap problems at all, but Allen hasn't make the mistake again of overpaying free agents, and that's the point I was trying to make. As of right now, I think you have to say that the Cowboys really overpaid for Davis based on his talent – not based on the open market rate, which has been really overinflated for guards since Steve Hutchinson cashed in. If Davis makes the Pro Bowl, then he's worth the cash. If he doesn't and is just an average starter, he took Dallas to the cleaners.

Again, four years after overpaying the infamous class of Steussie, Deese and Garner, Allen didn't spend more than $3 million on any player's signing bonus in 2007 so if that free agent doesn't work out, the Bucs cap situation doesn't get messed up. That, to me, is noteworthy.

As a reporter who has covered this team for about 13 years now, I can't remember being this excited to see a season start before. It will really be interesting following this team this year. This is a really pivotal year for the coaching staff and the front office. If Gruden and Allen's plans work and the free agents they brought in play well and Gruden's playcalling doesn't go haywire, they'll stick around. If the free agents are busts and the playcalling goes south, the Bucs lose and there are some parting gifts for several at One Buc Place. It's really that simple. With so much riding on the line, this season will be full of drama from week to week.
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#24 : August 30, 2007, 09:56:13 AM


If Gruden decides to make this a pass first team with a young OLine and one quality WR, he will not retain his job.  His personnel is not suited for a pass first game plan.  Quite frankly, very few teams can survive on a 40--25 pass run ratio.  If SR is right in his analysis, this will be a very disappointing year.  We won while he was here with a pound the rock mentality.  This limp back to the defense passing game will simply not work. 

Allen's job is to maximize his resources.  His drafts have been uninspiring, and his FA signings have been bland to downright silly.  His lose lose one year and out contract style cost us Gold and even Griese (not that I was that excited about him).  He has shown that while he is capable of turning a sly phrase about other GM's, he hasn't shown that he can do it himself.    In short, I see a lot of talk out of him, while only offering excuses for his lack of roster building skills. 

Adams, in fairness, was the right choice at 4.  It is very tough to trade for an elite pass rusher, and the best use of a #4 pick is to pick up a premium position (QB/LT/RDE).  They made the right call in taking Adams there. 

CurtR1995 - I have my doubts about Gruden's game-planning, too, but I'm not going to say that it "won't" work. I'll say that it probably won't work, but I'm not going to make an absolutist statement and say that there is no way it will work. The true nature of West Coast offense teams is to throw to set up the run.

In 2004, Clayton had a near-rookie of the year season. He got hurt, then had some drops and lost his confidence along the way back. I can't blame the coaching staff entirely for what has happened to Clayton. The player has to take some responsibility. It's not Richard Mann's fault that he drops passes. Mann teaches him the correct techique and it's up to Clayton to accept the responsibility to catch the ball. In 2005, Williams, Buenning, Smith and Allen were all rookies that helped the Bucs go to 11-5. I'm not ready to throw the towel in on that draft class and say it was a bust, especially with Williams, Smith and Allen slated to start. The 2006 draft features the most promising OL in Joseph that the Bucs have had in decades. Trueblood and Stovall show signs of being good players, too.

As for the free agent signings, the Bucs were simply lucky to get Gold and Griese for a year or two given their salary cap problems. Everyone focuses on Steussie, Garner and Deese, but forgets to mention, Hovan, Bidwell, Becht and Hilliard. You can also throw in Garcia, Carter, June and Petitgout into the mix, too. I just don't see where the Bucs' free agent classes have been bland or downright silly. But maybe they are. We'll find out in a few months whether Allen and the Bucs ultimately made the right personnel decisions or not.

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#25 : August 30, 2007, 11:32:25 AM

Fab 1-Who is saying that Adams is a bust? I know I saw one thread about it but most people in the thread were supporting Adams' play. Was there someone on the radio that I missed or maybe TV? I don't know why this was a Fab article.

Well, I've seen some folks imply he's a bust right here on this board.  His play has been a different story, though.  SR was just saying he's not a bust...not sure what your confusion is.  We should be comfortable with our #1 thus far, that's why this was a Fab.

Fab 2-3-Why not mention that there have been large increases to the salary cap and that our team has stunk and looks like they might stink again when talking about the salary cap. We don't have the players to push the salary cap. If we were over the cap with the players we have I'd be pissed. We brought in a couple of good players this offseason which is great. Give him credit for that but why should we be excited about having salary cap space if we're not going to use it? Why do we care about dead money. How much dead money did we have before Allen back in 99'-02' when we were winning. I guess my point is everybody always gives him credit for handling the cap but we've stunk and it's not because he had no money. We spent a bunch of money on free agents under Gruden that mainly turned out to be busts but used cap space that would have allowed us to keep pro bowlers and Bucs legends. I totally disagree with the point of this when we stink.

Any market (free agency, housing, automotive, whatever) can often be called a "buyer's" or "seller's" market, depending on the conditions.  This year's FA was clearly a seller's market, meaning that more money would buy you less of a free agent.  Was Clements worth $80 million? No.  How did that OT, errr...OG work out for Dallas?

The idea behind Allen staying on the cheap side this year was that by holding back this year, you might find more favorable conditions next year.  In other words, this was a long-term decision.  This year, many teams were overloaded with cap space, and it was a particularly thin FA class.

Also, the cap goes up every year, and some teams still have cap issues (see: Tennessee).

It seems to me that Allen made the decision that the club was better served by serving our long term considerations rather than jumping on a bunch of expensive FA out of desperation.  It seems that even you could get behind that idea, so that when you are the HC/GM next year, you'll have plenty to work with.

Time will tell how much we stink this year.

Fab 4-Pass Happy? I think I'm going to puke. Keys to winning =pass happy under Gruden? How about a strong running game to take pressure off of our suck offensive line so that our QB doesn't get crushed and have his spleen removed which will force us to use any McCown brother or Gradkowski for the rest of the season? What's next, we're going to move Gaines Adams to center?

Looking at trends in this league over the last 10 years, it's not uncommon to see teams use the pass to set up the run.  Arguing this point in particular with you seems useless, as you're obviously convinced that we can't pass the ball.

Can we run it, o seer?

Yeah, maybe if we set it up well with the pass.  ;)

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#26 : August 30, 2007, 01:04:31 PM

Fab 1-Who is saying that Adams is a bust? I know I saw one thread about it but most people in the thread were supporting Adams' play. Was there someone on the radio that I missed or maybe TV? I don't know why this was a Fab article.

Fab 2-3-Why not mention that there have been large increases to the salary cap and that our team has stunk and looks like they might stink again when talking about the salary cap. We don't have the players to push the salary cap. If we were over the cap with the players we have I'd be pissed. We brought in a couple of good players this offseason which is great. Give him credit for that but why should we be excited about having salary cap space if we're not going to use it? Why do we care about dead money. How much dead money did we have before Allen back in 99'-02' when we were winning. I guess my point is everybody always gives him credit for handling the cap but we've stunk and it's not because he had no money. We spent a bunch of money on free agents under Gruden that mainly turned out to be busts but used cap space that would have allowed us to keep pro bowlers and Bucs legends. I totally disagree with the point of this when we stink.

Fab 4-Pass Happy? I think I'm going to puke. Keys to winning =pass happy under Gruden? How about a strong running game to take pressure off of our suck offensive line so that our QB doesn't get crushed and have his spleen removed which will force us to use any McCown brother or Gradkowski for the rest of the season? What's next, we're going to move Gaines Adams to center?
Man, is there anyone on here you ever DO agree with?


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#27 : August 30, 2007, 01:05:13 PM

Beniro-We obviously have the opposite opinion on these subjects. We have tried this pass happy approach under Gruden several times before and it didn't work(See Brad Johnson and Brian Griese attempts per season). IMO it won't work again this year because of our offensive line and receivers.

Dallas' offensive line smokes ours so saying that Davis is a failed experiment is BS. They signed him as either a right OT or G depending on what Columbo did this offseason. He signed a two year extension so now Davis is playing guard. Like I said, Davis smokes any of our offensive lineman and did make the pro bowl before as an alternate. None of our crap lineman can even sniff the pro bowl. PS-I'll take Dallas' cap problems every year with that team. At least they're trying to win.

From 12 Pro Bowlers to 0-We got hosed alright


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#28 : August 30, 2007, 01:07:15 PM

I agree with anybody who doesn't like it when our players get mistreated, our drafts stink, and we lose, all while our front office has this smug look on their face like they can do no wrong.

From 12 Pro Bowlers to 0-We got hosed alright


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#29 : August 30, 2007, 01:07:52 PM

Take other games for example:  Last year VS the Bears, 2 years ago VS the Skins, last week VS the Fins...we had to pass to catch up, and the team thrived.


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