Fab 5 Comments

[buckit]

I agree with anybody who doesn't like it when our players get mistreated, our drafts stink, and we lose, all while our front office has this smug look on their face like they can do no wrong.

So, you're not only an armchair Coach, you're an armchair GM as well.  Let me guess, you've never played a down in your life, huh?

We have tried this pass happy approach under Gruden several times before and it didn't work(See Brad Johnson and Brian Griese attempts per season).

Didn't work? We won the Super Bowl. What exactly do you think the point of this exercise is?

[BornaBuc47]

You did notice the part where I said it wouldn't work now "because our offensive line stinks and our receivers aren't that good" right? In 2002 our offensive line and receivers were pretty good compared to now. I think we can agree on that.

[Booker Reese]

Beniro-We obviously have the opposite opinion on these subjects. We have tried this pass happy approach under Gruden several times before and it didn't work(See Brad Johnson and Brian Griese attempts per season). IMO it won't work again this year because of our offensive line and receivers.

Dallas' offensive line smokes ours so saying that Davis is a failed experiment is BS. They signed him as either a right OT or G depending on what Columbo did this offseason. He signed a two year extension so now Davis is playing guard. Like I said, Davis smokes any of our offensive lineman and did make the pro bowl before as an alternate. None of our crap lineman can even sniff the pro bowl. PS-I'll take Dallas' cap problems every year with that team. At least they're trying to win.

Bornabuc, get your facts straight. We probably threw too much with Brad Johnson in 2003 (3rd in NFL in attempts), but in 2004 and 2005 we were 20th in the NFL in attempts. That's hardly going nuts.

And as illuminator implies, we threw just 2 attempts per game less in 2002 than in 2003. I can't find league numbers for 2002, but 35 attempts per game pretty much puts you at least in the top ten in every other year.  If only we had won the SB....oh wait.

[dalbuc]

Bucs ranks in terms of rush attempts in the league:

2002: 24
2003: 23
2004: 27
2005: 15
2006: 28

Our pass ranks over the same time: 11, 3, 20, 21, 11

The one that leaps out if how crazy being 11th was last year.

The team's franchise record for pass attempts is 570 by Brad Johnson in 2003 under Coach Gruden. Second place is 559 attempts by Brad Johnson in 2001 under Coach Dungy. I guess those extra 11 attempts are just too damned many. Gruden stinks!

[1sparkybuc]

BornaBuc and Feel Real Good - In reference to Fab 2., this past year's free agent class was quite mediocre. We saw several "average" to "good" players get "great" to "excellent" money. I feel the Bucs showed some good fiscal responsibility in not overpaying for mediocre talent like other teams did and noted it. If a player like Leonard Davis or Eric Steinbach bombs in Dallas or Cleveland, respectively, that's a cap killer. If Luke Petitgout or Kevin Carter bomb in Tampa Bay, they can be cut without much in the way of a negative ramification.

Thank you for responding and I agree. My point was a lot of people on here act like free agent money will solve all the team's problems when history shows very few premier players switch teams and when they do they get a ton of money. The only legitimately high end talent from the 2005 class who changed teams were Edge James, Plax Burress, Jermane Mayberry, John Abraham, Pat Williams, Corey Simon, and Charles Woodson, and virtually every single one of those players had some sort of major question mark regarding age, maturity, or injury. The rest were all Kevin Carter, Luke Petitgout level players at best, which the Bucs have been able to afford all along. And then the Bucs would have to compete with 15-20 other teams with cap room. I just think it is short sighted the way people on here think free agency will be the end of the rainbow when history shows you win with the players you draft because you don't let the really good players get away.

Check the list of free agent players on the 2002 team. Can you envision winning a SB without Johnson & Johnson, Pittman, JJ, McCardell, not to mention our TEs, the majority of the OL, and Simeon Rice? The draft is really important without those guys the Bucs would have been lucky just to reach the playoffs. Think back to the Pittsburg game with Shaun King at QB.  That would have been our whole season right there.

I believe we will get some impact players in free agency next year. We can't solve every problemwith the draft. It takes too long for rookies to adapt. The Bucs will be competitive this year and will attract guys that want to be on a team with a future. We lost Sapp and Griese because we had no cap room. If we lose anyone else it will be for a different reason. Now we can afford to keep anyone we really want.

[dalbuc]

Fab 1-Who is saying that Adams is a bust?
Fab 2-3-Why not mention that there have been large increases to the salary cap and that our team has stunk and looks like they might stink again when talking about the salary cap. We don't have the players to push the salary cap.

Fab 1: Rather than arguing specifics it is easier to build up fake arguments by not understanding others.
Fab 2-3: Those arguments don't make Gruden and Allen look better which appears to now be the point of at least "fab" each time out.

[Booker Reese]

Dalbuc, I agree - the mix didn't make any sense at all to me last year.

I don't think the 2003 numbers are that crazy - I'll have to think about it some more, but basically 2003 we were playing to our strengths at QB and WR, and a RB who was better in the short passing game then he was as a runner.  We did have a good back we didn't trust until too late (Thomas Jones) of course.  

I don't agree with you or bornabuc on the criticism of Fab 1. The notion that he's a bust is all over the place - I've had friends who aren't even Bucs fans ask me if it's true that Gaines sucks. People don't ask if he's the next Eric Curry because they want to notify the HOF voter committtee. 

You seem to think that Fab 1 is a direct shot at your nuanced take on Gaines - get over yourself.

[dalbuc]

You seem to think that Fab 1 is a direct shot at your nuanced take on Gaines - get over yourself.

No, I think it reflects the basic homer impulses that see any criticism or questions as being "He's a bust" when talking about anyone. There's not a lot of range for criticism without the knee-jerk Grudenista (and the PR guys are full-on Grudenistas) making it some ridiculous all or nothing argument.

[CurtR1995]

If Gruden decides to make this a pass first team with a young OLine and one quality WR, he will not retain his job. His personnel is not suited for a pass first game plan. Quite frankly, very few teams can survive on a 40--25 pass run ratio. If SR is right in his analysis, this will be a very disappointing year. We won while he was here with a pound the rock mentality. This limp back to the defense passing game will simply not work.

Allen's job is to maximize his resources. His drafts have been uninspiring, and his FA signings have been bland to downright silly. His lose lose one year and out contract style cost us Gold and even Griese (not that I was that excited about him). He has shown that while he is capable of turning a sly phrase about other GM's, he hasn't shown that he can do it himself. In short, I see a lot of talk out of him, while only offering excuses for his lack of roster building skills.

Adams, in fairness, was the right choice at 4. It is very tough to trade for an elite pass rusher, and the best use of a #4 pick is to pick up a premium position (QB/LT/RDE). They made the right call in taking Adams there.

CurtR1995 - I have my doubts about Gruden's game-planning, too, but I'm not going to say that it "won't" work. I'll say that it probably won't work, but I'm not going to make an absolutist statement and say that there is no way it will work. The true nature of West Coast offense teams is to throw to set up the run.

In 2004, Clayton had a near-rookie of the year season. He got hurt, then had some drops and lost his confidence along the way back. I can't blame the coaching staff entirely for what has happened to Clayton. The player has to take some responsibility. It's not Richard Mann's fault that he drops passes. Mann teaches him the correct techique and it's up to Clayton to accept the responsibility to catch the ball. In 2005, Williams, Buenning, Smith and Allen were all rookies that helped the Bucs go to 11-5. I'm not ready to throw the towel in on that draft class and say it was a bust, especially with Williams, Smith and Allen slated to start. The 2006 draft features the most promising OL in Joseph that the Bucs have had in decades. Trueblood and Stovall show signs of being good players, too.

As for the free agent signings, the Bucs were simply lucky to get Gold and Griese for a year or two given their salary cap problems. Everyone focuses on Steussie, Garner and Deese, but forgets to mention, Hovan, Bidwell, Becht and Hilliard. You can also throw in Garcia, Carter, June and Petitgout into the mix, too. I just don't see where the Bucs' free agent classes have been bland or downright silly. But maybe they are. We'll find out in a few months whether Allen and the Bucs ultimately made the right personnel decisions or not.

Thank your response, you certainly didn't need to.

The good news is that I highly doubt that Gruden is serious about being a pass first team.  Every player he has brought in the last few years says he wants to run the ball more.  You don't spend a 1 on a guard, a high 2 on a guard, a 2 on a run blocking RT, sign a TE who is really a OT in Becht, and spend the 5th pick in the draft on a run only capable RB to become a pass first team.  With a 37 year old fragile QB?  Not on his career.  This will be a run first team.  His comments were smoke screens, and a poor one at that.  

Honestly, I'm shocked anyone fell for it.  

You can see their plan.  The quickest way to win games with marginal talent is to win the turnover battle.  If you run first, and pass the ball with a savy 37 year old WCO QB, you can limit turnovers.  On D, they have brought in mostly fast, low contact types in June, Carter, SB, Adams, and Jackson.  None of them pack a punch by NFL standards, but all of them have that "nose for the ball," and do it with speed.  

The gameplan is to become a big play, turnover D and an O that will limit mistakes, grind the clock, and make a few plays here and there with a safe QB that will spot the open man.

This will NOT be a pass first team.  Come on now.  

[Feel Real Good]

BornaBuc and Feel Real Good - In reference to Fab 2., this past year's free agent class was quite mediocre. We saw several "average" to "good" players get "great" to "excellent" money. I feel the Bucs showed some good fiscal responsibility in not overpaying for mediocre talent like other teams did and noted it. If a player like Leonard Davis or Eric Steinbach bombs in Dallas or Cleveland, respectively, that's a cap killer. If Luke Petitgout or Kevin Carter bomb in Tampa Bay, they can be cut without much in the way of a negative ramification.

Thank you for responding and I agree. My point was a lot of people on here act like free agent money will solve all the team's problems when history shows very few premier players switch teams and when they do they get a ton of money. The only legitimately high end talent from the 2005 class who changed teams were Edge James, Plax Burress, Jermane Mayberry, John Abraham, Pat Williams, Corey Simon, and Charles Woodson, and virtually every single one of those players had some sort of major question mark regarding age, maturity, or injury. The rest were all Kevin Carter, Luke Petitgout level players at best, which the Bucs have been able to afford all along. And then the Bucs would have to compete with 15-20 other teams with cap room. I just think it is short sighted the way people on here think free agency will be the end of the rainbow when history shows you win with the players you draft because you don't let the really good players get away.

Check the list of free agent players on the 2002 team. Can you envision winning a SB without Johnson & Johnson, Pittman, JJ, McCardell, not to mention our TEs, the majority of the OL, and Simeon Rice? The draft is really important without those guys the Bucs would have been lucky just to reach the playoffs. Think back to the Pittsburg game with Shaun King at QB.  That would have been our whole season right there.

I believe we will get some impact players in free agency next year. We can't solve every problem with the draft. It takes too long for rookies to adapt. The Bucs will be competitive this year and will attract guys that want to be on a team with a future. We lost Sapp and Griese because we had no cap room. If we lose anyone else it will be for a different reason. Now we can afford to keep anyone we really want.

I'm not talking free agency in general because the team has been able to afford budget to mid level free agents for the whole time Gruden has been here. I'm talking about the blue chip free agents people on here seem to think are all going to pour into One Buc Place now that the team has cap room. Of your list, only Simeon was a clear blue chipper. Keyshawn was part of a trade.The rest worked out better, but have not been of a higher profile than the Garner, Steussie, Bolden types.

No you don't solve every problem with the draft. But you do solve your biggest problems with the draft because those are the biggest problems for every team and once teams find solutions to those problems, they don't often let them go. Arguably the Bucs' 5 best players on the Super Bowl team were drafted. Every single player of any significance on the Colts except Booger was drafted by the team.

[RedAlert]

CurtR1995 - I have my doubts about Gruden's game-planning, too, but I'm not going to say that it "won't" work. I'll say that it probably won't work, but I'm not going to make an absolutist statement and say that there is no way it will work. The true nature of West Coast offense teams is to throw to set up the run.

That's something of a misconception. If you look back to the years that Bill Walsh, WCO guru, ran the 49er offense, it would appear that initially he launched his new offense with that approach in mind. But as it turns out, running the ball was just as, if not more, vital to the success of his 49er teams.

His team passed more than they ran in 1979, 80, 82, 83, 85 & 86. Never finishing with more than 10 wins in any of those years and missing the playoffs in 3 of 6 years..

Conversely, his team ran more than they passed in 81, 84, 87 & 88. Winning Super Bowls in 3 of those years and finishing 13-2 in the year they didn't.

I'm sure if you were able to ask Bill Walsh today, he would give a glowing endorsement to establishing the ability to run the ball. At least to the point where you can feel comfortable enough to use it as your primary weapon..

His team passed more than they ran in 1979, 80, 82, 83, 85 & 86. Never finishing with more than 10 wins in any of those years and missing the playoffs in 3 of 6 years..

Conversely, his team ran more than they passed in 81, 84, 87 & 88. Winning Super Bowls in 3 of those years and finishing 13-2 in the year they didn't.

The problem here is that you fail to establish which is the cause and which is the effect. Did they win because they ran the ball more, or did they run the ball more because they were winning?

I didn't realize, my bad. Whats the point of coming to this board if you are not an insider? I think he would be more at home at buccaneers.com

Because unlike common misconception not every non insider is ignorant to Bucs' football, nor the game and business of football. It's amazing, I know that we don't listen and adopt everything we hear from the box.