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#30 : September 13, 2007, 09:14:32 PM

This isn't the matrix. You can't expect Garcia to know our offense inside and out at the flip of a switch. It takes time to get comfortable in the system. A few months of practice and a half dozen drives in the preseason isn't exactly going to do it.

Well, I'm not a Garcia guy. I really don't expect much out of him in any case. It's just funny to see you point out how he needs time to get comfortable in the system only after he actually brought less to the table than many expected. I don't remember one person saying that before Sunday..



I don't believe he brought less to the table, I just think he missed some plays he probably won't miss in a couple of games. His deep ball to Galloway, his scramble for a 1st down where he got clocked, his 3rd down pass to Hilliard, three plays right there that wouldn't have been made with Gradkowski and probably Simms in there. People just want instant gratification around here and don't want to see any mistakes. That's just not realistic.
Instant? What's longevity, Gruden's 25th season?

I'm talking about Garcia's production, not Gruden's. People expected him to come in here and from the first snap play like a pro bowler. There were a few mistakes and people are already starting to question the move. It's a joke.
You are really lost aren't you? Garcia is the guy Gruden has tried to get to Tampa since 2003. Gruden is quoted in the media as saying, "I love Jeff Garcia." Everything Johnson, King, Johnson, Griese, Simms, Gradkowski, Rattay and McCown aren't is what Garcia was supposed to be. Garcia was supposed to be the closest thing to Rich Gannon Gruden can find, because of course, Jon isn't smart enough to win with any other type of QB. I don't blame Jeff, hell no. Gruden finally has his guy, and we couldn't score a TD.

Take Shanahan for example, he has won with Elway, Griese, Plummer and now Cutler. 4 totally different QB's and styles. If that were Jon, he'd still be waiting for his next Elway. Message to Jon Gruden:There is only one Rich Gannon, learn to win with the players you have. One of the greatest deep balls in all the NFL for 2 years, and he tried to have Simms use the 3 step drop. If Gruden is so smart, why didn't he realize Simms, Mechanics and throwing motion didn't fit that and game plan accordingly? Why? Because he sucks.

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#31 : September 13, 2007, 09:16:46 PM

This isn't the matrix. You can't expect Garcia to know our offense inside and out at the flip of a switch. It takes time to get comfortable in the system. A few months of practice and a half dozen drives in the preseason isn't exactly going to do it.

The perhaps our coach should've played him more.

You anti's sure do have a complaint ready at the drop of a hat don't you. Let's see, people were pissed about our performance last year, especially the QB play. So Gruden brings in a new guy, plays him more than usual in the preseason, and then he gets hurt. You can say what you want, but I'm 100 % positive the anti-gruden clan would be on here blasting Gruden for playing him too much in the preseason.

It's comments like that HATE that prove Gruden will never be accepted here no matter what he does, good or bad.

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#32 : September 13, 2007, 09:22:36 PM

This isn't the matrix. You can't expect Garcia to know our offense inside and out at the flip of a switch. It takes time to get comfortable in the system. A few months of practice and a half dozen drives in the preseason isn't exactly going to do it.

Well, I'm not a Garcia guy. I really don't expect much out of him in any case. It's just funny to see you point out how he needs time to get comfortable in the system only after he actually brought less to the table than many expected. I don't remember one person saying that before Sunday..



I don't believe he brought less to the table, I just think he missed some plays he probably won't miss in a couple of games. His deep ball to Galloway, his scramble for a 1st down where he got clocked, his 3rd down pass to Hilliard, three plays right there that wouldn't have been made with Gradkowski and probably Simms in there. People just want instant gratification around here and don't want to see any mistakes. That's just not realistic.
Instant? What's longevity, Gruden's 25th season?

I'm talking about Garcia's production, not Gruden's. People expected him to come in here and from the first snap play like a pro bowler. There were a few mistakes and people are already starting to question the move. It's a joke.
You are really lost aren't you? Garcia is the guy Gruden has tried to get to Tampa since 2003. Gruden is quoted in the media as saying, "I love Jeff Garcia." Everything Johnson, King, Johnson, Griese, Simms, Gradkowski, Rattay and McCown aren't is what Garcia was supposed to be. Garcia was supposed to be the closest thing to Rich Gannon Gruden can find, because of course, Jon isn't smart enough to win with any other type of QB. I don't blame Jeff, hell no. Gruden finally has his guy, and we couldn't score a TD.

Take Shanahan for example, he has won with Elway, Griese, Plummer and now Cutler. 4 totally different QB's and styles. If that were Jon, he'd still be waiting for his next Elway. Message to Jon Gruden:There is only one Rich Gannon, learn to win with the players you have. One of the greatest deep balls in all the NFL for 2 years, and he tried to have Simms use the 3 step drop. If Gruden is so smart, why didn't he realize Simms, Mechanics and throwing motion didn't fit that and game plan accordingly? Why? Because he sucks.

Nope, not lost, in fact I'm sitting right here. Everything you said is real swell and all, but you still ignore one valid point. Garcia still needs time to acclimate himself to our sytem.

Last year Drew Brees, his first game in a new system, finished with a rating of 67.4. He had one touchdown and one interception, and completed only 16 of 30 passes. And that was against CLEVELAND. What kind of year did Brees end up having there sport?

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#33 : September 13, 2007, 09:23:05 PM

Oh I have high expectations from him, I'm just not foolish enough to believe he was going to light the world on fire in his first game given the fact that he needed live game action, and given who and where we played.

If he is missing these kinds of passes in week 4-5 then you're right, he isn't what this team needed.

I wouldn't go as far as saying he isn't something we needed, because it's pretty obvious we're thin at the position. But even if he is hitting those passes next week, a lot of other facets have to come into play..

*broken record*

blocking, running game, WR play, health... you know what I mean..


But I was encouraged by the defense holding us in this game as long as they did. They looked better than the score indicated. With any help from the offense...  ...well, now we've come full circle..

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#34 : September 13, 2007, 09:25:39 PM

And about your Denver comparison and "4 totally different QB's and styles". Tell me one thing, what WASN'T different during the tenure of each of those QB's? Oh, that's right, a very successful running game. But don't let that fact get in the way.



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#35 : September 13, 2007, 09:30:22 PM

This isn't the matrix. You can't expect Garcia to know our offense inside and out at the flip of a switch. It takes time to get comfortable in the system. A few months of practice and a half dozen drives in the preseason isn't exactly going to do it.

The perhaps our coach should've played him more.

You anti's sure do have a complaint ready at the drop of a hat don't you. Let's see, people were pissed about our performance last year, especially the QB play. So Gruden brings in a new guy, plays him more than usual in the preseason, and then he gets hurt. You can say what you want, but I'm 100 % positive the anti-gruden clan would be on here blasting Gruden for playing him too much in the preseason.

It's comments like that HATE that prove Gruden will never be accepted here no matter what he does, good or bad.

I'm sure there are some on here that would be pissed if he or any other player got hurt in preseason HOWEVER I am not one of them. The guy needed to build chemistry with his teammates and IMO he can't do that in practice.

I guess now we'll throw away a few games while they work on their offensive timing.

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#36 : September 13, 2007, 09:32:56 PM

Oh I have high expectations from him, I'm just not foolish enough to believe he was going to light the world on fire in his first game given the fact that he needed live game action, and given who and where we played.

If he is missing these kinds of passes in week 4-5 then you're right, he isn't what this team needed.

I wouldn't go as far as saying he isn't something we needed, because it's pretty obvious we're thin at the position. But even if he is hitting those passes next week, a lot of other facets have to come into play..

*broken record*

blocking, running game, WR play, health... you know what I mean..


But I was encouraged by the defense holding us in this game as long as they did. They looked better than the score indicated. With any help from the offense...  ...well, now we've come full circle..


The defensive performance wasn't bad, but I'm still sick of the 3rd down conversions we give up. Their two longest passing plays both came on 3rd down, one on 3rd and 12 and the other on 3rd and 5. I know we aren't going to stop every third down but those two plays alone directly led to 10 points.

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#37 : September 13, 2007, 09:34:36 PM

This isn't the matrix. You can't expect Garcia to know our offense inside and out at the flip of a switch. It takes time to get comfortable in the system. A few months of practice and a half dozen drives in the preseason isn't exactly going to do it.

The perhaps our coach should've played him more.

You anti's sure do have a complaint ready at the drop of a hat don't you. Let's see, people were pissed about our performance last year, especially the QB play. So Gruden brings in a new guy, plays him more than usual in the preseason, and then he gets hurt. You can say what you want, but I'm 100 % positive the anti-gruden clan would be on here blasting Gruden for playing him too much in the preseason.

It's comments like that HATE that prove Gruden will never be accepted here no matter what he does, good or bad.

I'm sure there are some on here that would be pissed if he or any other player got hurt in preseason HOWEVER I am not one of them. The guy needed to build chemistry with his teammates and IMO he can't do that in practice.

I guess now we'll throw away a few games while they work on their offensive timing.

I agree Hate, he probably should have played longer in the preseason. But since he didn't I expected some rust and "happy feet", and that's what we got at times.

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#38 : September 13, 2007, 09:35:04 PM

Well if Parcells didn't wanna coach here, what was are other option? God lets not think about the other ones that come to mind Dennis Green and Steve Mooch


Quote from: True Playa
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#39 : September 13, 2007, 09:40:45 PM

Elway and Cutler are the same QB. Plummer and Griese are similar enough. It's more like 2 different types.

Anyways, Escobar why on Earth can't you understand that the people here posting aren't necessarily the ones who have always been anti Gruden. ABuccs supported Gruden and at one point bought into him. It took until this year for him to feel this way, as it did me, as it did others. The guy just isn't getting the job done. Nothing you say is going to change that fact, or the fact that we've seen enough already.

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#40 : September 13, 2007, 09:46:00 PM

Elway and Cutler are the same QB. Plummer and Griese are similar enough. It's more like 2 different types.

Anyways, Escobar why on Earth can't you understand that the people here posting aren't necessarily the ones who have always been anti Gruden. ABuccs supported Gruden and at one point bought into him. It took until this year for him to feel this way, as it did me, as it did others. The guy just isn't getting the job done. Nothing you say is going to change that fact, or the fact that we've seen enough already.


Option I can understand that. And I realize everyones tolerance level is different. I just thought that with the new players we brought in that most fans both anti and pro Gruden, would give it some time before they decided this season was a bust or a success. I never thought that this much negativity would come from losing one game against a good team on the road.

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#41 : September 13, 2007, 09:50:05 PM

Well, once again I will say this - who do we have to lean on in terms of young players, though?

None of our freaking draft picks develop! If you can't draft talent and develop it then you can't win in the NFL. Unfortunately, that is what has happened to us and that is why we are A) in the position we are in my opinion and B) never going to turn it around under Gruden.

Realistically, even if we were to win 10 games this year we are still setting ourselves up for failure with Gruden in years to come because he has shown that he just can't hack it developing talent. He doesn't have the patience for it. I see this as going back to his Oakland days where I can't think of anybody he developed.

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#42 : September 13, 2007, 10:29:32 PM

Elway and Cutler are the same QB. Plummer and Griese are similar enough. It's more like 2 different types.

Anyways, Escobar why on Earth can't you understand that the people here posting aren't necessarily the ones who have always been anti Gruden. ABuccs supported Gruden and at one point bought into him. It took until this year for him to feel this way, as it did me, as it did others. The guy just isn't getting the job done. Nothing you say is going to change that fact, or the fact that we've seen enough already.
   
 Are you saying the team did not show improvement last week compared to last years games?  Besides points scored.  Which should of been much more had the offense made a few more plays.
  I am not pro or anti Gruden.  He is young in his coaching career.  He has made mistakes as have most.   I know he should be on the hot seat.  I understand that it has been years without a potent offense.  It frustrates everyone. It doesn't frustrate me more than watching a Buc game coached under Dungy did.  I remember the Dungy games all too well.  What you propose is going to set the team back two or three more years. I don't want to see that happen.   What coach is going to come in and be able to bring in the personnel to compete in a hurry like you guys want?
 So much of the this blame is left off of the players. If one does not think this is the case then a tivo/dvr is what you need.  Great players have made some bad plays in the past few years.
 Also, I have a question about the salary cap. Why is the team so far below the salary cap?  Is it customary for a 4-12 team to have excess money not spent on improvement. This is one things that puzzles me.

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#43 : September 13, 2007, 10:31:32 PM

I have to completely disagree with optionmasta.

The draft grades for the 2005 class are incomplete as of now as far as I am concerned.  They say a draft should be graded three years out.  Well the time is now for the 2005 draft class to step up in the 2007 season.   Only after 16 games have been played in 2007 we can make a determination about Ruud, Carnell, Smith, and Buenning.

You can not grade the 2005 draft class based on one game played thus far.

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#44 : September 13, 2007, 10:44:31 PM


And yes, it's just one game. As Escobar stated, the past few years mean crap when we're judging this
year. If we continue to suck, then Gruden will be gone. Whining about it after one game is pointless.
I think we all agree that if this team goes 8-8 or better, Gruden stays. And if not, he'll be gone and
we'll look ahead. I think most fans are ready for a change IF we stink it up this year. But, as
far as this year goes? Yes, it's just one game. I won't talk about a Super Bowl and an overachieving
team that won our division and you don't talk about the bad seasons. They're irrelevant right now.

If you didn't see anything different on Sunday, then you need to go watch the game again.
It's not where we need to be but we moved the ball a hell of a lot better than last year.
But that's not saying too much because Grads was at the helm last year. But some
still say it looked the same as last year.

This D is quick and has potential to shut down some teams. And I think the O will come
around. If I'm wrong, so what? But I sure as hell don't claim to KNOW what will
happen the rest of the way. Therefore, I'll watch this Sunday, hope for a win,
and take it from there.

If we look like crap this week, I'll take one more step closer to jumping too. But
as far as jumping for real? Not for at least 5 or 6 games in. I want to see what
Garcia can do.

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