Feeling a bit low right now....

[alldaway]

You can spend +30 million on offense (Tony Gonzales, Steinbach, Shelton, Plummer) and draft an offensive players with a first round pick (CJ) and still have an offense that is under par.

Coaching has to improve this year and I have to see a sense of direction to be optimistic for next year.  I do not think Gruden will be here next year with the way things are going.

We are paying the price for the lack of high draft picks over that last few years - the cost of getting Gruden.  Couple that with questionable evaluation of talent of the high draft picks we DID have, and you've got a team that's lacking in talent.

Think of the players we could have with those #1s and #2s we gave away.  We sold our soul for a Super Bowl (which most of us said we would have done at the time, me included) and now it's time to pay the piper.

Lack of draft picks on offense?The Bucs are way past that now and it is not good enough excuse for the poor offensive perfomances the last few years?  Carnell, Buenning, Joseph, Trueblood, Stovall, Mahan, Clayton, Smith.

[cvillebucfan]

The Saints offense does not posses great talent overall. The Bucs have talent too.

But according to some people Alex Smith, Carnell Williams, Dan Buenning, AD (did not give up a sack to Ruckers btw) have to replaced.

It is coaching not the players. We have seen poor offense with Brad or Griese leading the way. With Deese or Oben at LT, With Keyshawn and McCardell. With Pittman being the feature back. Nothing has changed when the Bucs have changed the players.

Enough with the excuses. Mike Martz does not have a lot of talent to work with either. Rogers was cut, Mike Williams is benched. Only Roy Williams and Kevin Jones are the talented players on offense.

What do we have........a good RB a speed ball WR who is dangerous (if he catches it) another WR (clayton) that can't get a guy out of his hip pocket, a OL with one bright spot (joseph, ok maybe davis, MAYBE)

Good points on the Lions though, they can move the ball but they do have what we don't an OL and a do it all WR in Williams.

I think Gruden needs to quit playing with the handcuffs on and either expose the players as weak or succeed on offense. The whole idea of "well we cant block that well and we have a rookie QB" is lame. That is what seperates say Grads from Leinart. Leinart gets the full brunt of the offense, nothing less. Grads gets the childrens book because Gru thinks he can't get it done for a variety of reason (blocking, matchups, whatever)

[cvillebucfan]

You can spend +30 million on offense (Tony Gonzales, Steinbach, Shelton, Plummer) and draft an offensive players with a first round pick (CJ) and still have an offense that is under par.

Coaching has to improve this year and I have to see a sense of direction to be optimistic for next year. I do not think Gruden will be here next year with the way things are going.

We are paying the price for the lack of high draft picks over that last few years - the cost of getting Gruden. Couple that with questionable evaluation of talent of the high draft picks we DID have, and you've got a team that's lacking in talent.

Think of the players we could have with those #1s and #2s we gave away. We sold our soul for a Super Bowl (which most of us said we would have done at the time, me included) and now it's time to pay the piper.

Lack of draft picks on offense?The Bucs are way past that now and it is not good enough excuse for the poor offensive perfomances the last few years? Carnell, Buenning, Joseph, Trueblood, Stovall, Mahan, Clayton, Smith.

We have lost at least 6 players (4 1st 2 2nds) in the previous years, that is huge to a team...

[alldaway]

The Lions have an o-line?  Are you serious?  Backus is dissapointing and Woody is not the same player he was in New England after signing that fat contract. Marinelli and Martz have a lot to do to fix both lines.  Difference is they are producing.

There are offenses in this league with less talent than the Bucs but can do more.  This is where I am dissapointed. If Gruden needs elite talent to field an average offense that is not a good return of the money invested on offense. 

[ZenBuc]

The Bucs can spend 30+ million in free agency and draft an offensive player in the first round and the offense will still look bad. Folks it is not the lack of talent on offense.

Here let me evalaute the great Saints offense:

QB:  Brees is an all pro. But he is not exactly tall nor does he posses great arm strenght.
RB: Deuce looked poor the last two years.  With new coaching and some motivation he looks good.  Bush has been a non factor on the ground.
WR:  Colston is producing as a rook from the seventh round, Horn has looked decent, but Devery Henderson (I can not catch a cold) looks much improved.  Probably the shipping out of Stallworth had to do it.
TE: Not spectacular production here.
LT: rookie LT from the seventh round starting right now.  Brown was playing here before he went down with an injury and played RT last year.
LG: Nesbit is simply average.
C: Faine was shipped out of Cleveland and is doing a serviceable job.  But nothing special.
RG: Evans is a fourth round rookie.  Nothing special he just does his job.
RT: Stinchcomb is seeing significant playing time this year as a young player.

Where is this great talent on the Saints offense other than Reggie Bush?

I can do this with the Jets offense as well.

You answered your own question.
The Saints would be the same craptastic team if Aaron Brooks was still the QB. Look at all the good-great teams and they all have solid QB play. A QB will make or break a team. Look at the Colts, their defense sucks this year, they can't run the ball that good, and yet they keep winning because of Manning. I've heard more than one analysist state that if you take away Manning the Colts would be a .500 team at best.
And to use another Manning for an example.....When Eli Manning came in his rookie year the Giants were a 5-2 team. With Eli at the helm they lost 8 straight games and finished 6-10. Don't underestimate the impact that QBs have on the game

[alldaway]

You can spend +30 million on offense (Tony Gonzales, Steinbach, Shelton, Plummer) and draft an offensive players with a first round pick (CJ) and still have an offense that is under par.

Coaching has to improve this year and I have to see a sense of direction to be optimistic for next year. I do not think Gruden will be here next year with the way things are going.

We are paying the price for the lack of high draft picks over that last few years - the cost of getting Gruden. Couple that with questionable evaluation of talent of the high draft picks we DID have, and you've got a team that's lacking in talent.

Think of the players we could have with those #1s and #2s we gave away. We sold our soul for a Super Bowl (which most of us said we would have done at the time, me included) and now it's time to pay the piper.

Lack of draft picks on offense?The Bucs are way past that now and it is not good enough excuse for the poor offensive perfomances the last few years? Carnell, Buenning, Joseph, Trueblood, Stovall, Mahan, Clayton, Smith.

We have lost at least 6 players (4 1st 2 2nds) in the previous years, that is huge to a team...

Six players do not make or break a team. 

[alldaway]

The Bucs can spend 30+ million in free agency and draft an offensive player in the first round and the offense will still look bad. Folks it is not the lack of talent on offense.

Here let me evalaute the great Saints offense:

QB:  Brees is an all pro. But he is not exactly tall nor does he posses great arm strenght.
RB: Deuce looked poor the last two years.  With new coaching and some motivation he looks good.  Bush has been a non factor on the ground.
WR:  Colston is producing as a rook from the seventh round, Horn has looked decent, but Devery Henderson (I can not catch a cold) looks much improved.  Probably the shipping out of Stallworth had to do it.
TE: Not spectacular production here.
LT: rookie LT from the seventh round starting right now.  Brown was playing here before he went down with an injury and played RT last year.
LG: Nesbit is simply average.
C: Faine was shipped out of Cleveland and is doing a serviceable job.  But nothing special.
RG: Evans is a fourth round rookie.  Nothing special he just does his job.
RT: Stinchcomb is seeing significant playing time this year as a young player.

Where is this great talent on the Saints offense other than Reggie Bush?

I can do this with the Jets offense as well.

You answered your own question.
The Saints would be the same craptastic team if Aaron Brooks was still the QB. Look at all the good-great teams and they all have solid QB play. A QB will make or break a team. Look at the Colts, their defense sucks this year, they can't run the ball that good, and yet they keep winning because of Manning. I've heard more than one analysist state that if you take away Manning the Colts would be a .500 team at best.
And to use another Manning for an example.....When Eli Manning came in his rookie year the Giants were a 5-2 team. With Eli at the helm they lost 8 straight games and finished 6-10. Don't underestimate the impact that QBs have on the game

Aaron Brooks produced results on offense even with his Griese like miscues.  Do not believe me?  The one poor year he had was last year. Look at the rest of his stats while there as a Saint.  The Bucs have not even had half those results on offense over the years with Gruden.

Peyton Manning has a good offensive coordinator named Tom Moore.  He is the Monte of the offensive coordinators.  It is not just about the QB......

[ZenBuc]

You can spend +30 million on offense (Tony Gonzales, Steinbach, Shelton, Plummer) and draft an offensive players with a first round pick (CJ) and still have an offense that is under par.

Coaching has to improve this year and I have to see a sense of direction to be optimistic for next year. I do not think Gruden will be here next year with the way things are going.

We are paying the price for the lack of high draft picks over that last few years - the cost of getting Gruden. Couple that with questionable evaluation of talent of the high draft picks we DID have, and you've got a team that's lacking in talent.

Think of the players we could have with those #1s and #2s we gave away. We sold our soul for a Super Bowl (which most of us said we would have done at the time, me included) and now it's time to pay the piper.

Lack of draft picks on offense?The Bucs are way past that now and it is not good enough excuse for the poor offensive perfomances the last few years? Carnell, Buenning, Joseph, Trueblood, Stovall, Mahan, Clayton, Smith.

We have lost at least 6 players (4 1st 2 2nds) in the previous years, that is huge to a team...

Six players do not make or break a team. 

really? So let's go back to the 2002 team. Take away
1. Sapp
2. Brooks
3. Lynch
4. Rice
5. Barber
6. Johnson

Do we still win the Super Bowl???

[ZenBuc]

The Bucs can spend 30+ million in free agency and draft an offensive player in the first round and the offense will still look bad. Folks it is not the lack of talent on offense.

Here let me evalaute the great Saints offense:

QB:  Brees is an all pro. But he is not exactly tall nor does he posses great arm strenght.
RB: Deuce looked poor the last two years.  With new coaching and some motivation he looks good.  Bush has been a non factor on the ground.
WR:  Colston is producing as a rook from the seventh round, Horn has looked decent, but Devery Henderson (I can not catch a cold) looks much improved.  Probably the shipping out of Stallworth had to do it.
TE: Not spectacular production here.
LT: rookie LT from the seventh round starting right now.  Brown was playing here before he went down with an injury and played RT last year.
LG: Nesbit is simply average.
C: Faine was shipped out of Cleveland and is doing a serviceable job.  But nothing special.
RG: Evans is a fourth round rookie.  Nothing special he just does his job.
RT: Stinchcomb is seeing significant playing time this year as a young player.

Where is this great talent on the Saints offense other than Reggie Bush?

I can do this with the Jets offense as well.

You answered your own question.
The Saints would be the same craptastic team if Aaron Brooks was still the QB. Look at all the good-great teams and they all have solid QB play. A QB will make or break a team. Look at the Colts, their defense sucks this year, they can't run the ball that good, and yet they keep winning because of Manning. I've heard more than one analysist state that if you take away Manning the Colts would be a .500 team at best.
And to use another Manning for an example.....When Eli Manning came in his rookie year the Giants were a 5-2 team. With Eli at the helm they lost 8 straight games and finished 6-10. Don't underestimate the impact that QBs have on the game

Aaron Brooks produced results on offense even with his Griese like miscues.  Do not believe me?  The one poor year he had was last year. Look at the rest of his stats while there as a Saint.  The Bucs have not even had half those results on offense over the years with Gruden.

Peyton Manning has a good offensive coordinator named Tom Moore.  He is the Monte of the offensive coordinators.  It is not just about the QB......

so you're saying that if Manning goes down and Sorgi is the starting QB the Colts will still light it up and keep winning?

[cvillebucfan]

It all comes down to players. Billick, offensive matermind, look at what the Ravens have done in his tenure. Marvin Lewis, defensive whiz, check out the Bengals defense. Gruden, offensive guru look at our offense. Shottenheimer, defensive guy, #1 offense. You can't pull the cart if you don't have the horses.

Where I fault Gruden is not getting the guys he needs to pull the cart. Granted draft picks and high profile players have been missed out on from the deals done previously.

We have some talent but we don't have that much, lets just be honest.

What do good coaches have in common? They all have great QB's. Go back to the 49'ers with Walsh, Bellicheck in New England, Parcells in NY, Holmgren in Hasslebeck and Favre, Andy Reid has mcnabb Martz/Vermil had Green, Warner and Bulger. Sure there is Martz who is a mastermind, obviously but for every great coach you have a great QB. We don't have a great QB  and never have had a great QB. We need to get a QB that adj the defense so you can run or pass and keep them off balance. Gruden made Johnson a superbowl champ, made Gannon a league MVP, resurrected griese and had Simms going unitl.............

[ZenBuc]

You can spend +30 million on offense (Tony Gonzales, Steinbach, Shelton, Plummer) and draft an offensive players with a first round pick (CJ) and still have an offense that is under par.

Coaching has to improve this year and I have to see a sense of direction to be optimistic for next year.  I do not think Gruden will be here next year with the way things are going.

We are paying the price for the lack of high draft picks over that last few years - the cost of getting Gruden.  Couple that with questionable evaluation of talent of the high draft picks we DID have, and you've got a team that's lacking in talent.

Think of the players we could have with those #1s and #2s we gave away.  We sold our soul for a Super Bowl (which most of us said we would have done at the time, me included) and now it's time to pay the piper.

Lack of draft picks on offense?The Bucs are way past that now and it is not good enough excuse for the poor offensive perfomances the last few years?  Carnell, Buenning, Joseph, Trueblood, Stovall, Mahan, Clayton, Smith.

Again, really? All those guys were drafted within less than 2 years ago with the expection of Clayton who has a year on them all. Do you expect them to all be pro bowlers in their 1st and 2nd years? What this team is missing are the talented players in their primes. Guys who are 4,5,6,7 year guys. What we have are 1,2 and 3 year young guys and and 30+ year old vets. That's where those draft picks are missed. THe Glazers and Mckay gave up 7 premium 1st and 2nd round picks to try and win a championship. That's a pool of 7 possible talented players, that would now be in the prime of their careers that we are missing. IMO, that is absoulutely HUGE.

[cvillebucfan]

You can spend +30 million on offense (Tony Gonzales, Steinbach, Shelton, Plummer) and draft an offensive players with a first round pick (CJ) and still have an offense that is under par.

Coaching has to improve this year and I have to see a sense of direction to be optimistic for next year. I do not think Gruden will be here next year with the way things are going.

We are paying the price for the lack of high draft picks over that last few years - the cost of getting Gruden. Couple that with questionable evaluation of talent of the high draft picks we DID have, and you've got a team that's lacking in talent.

Think of the players we could have with those #1s and #2s we gave away. We sold our soul for a Super Bowl (which most of us said we would have done at the time, me included) and now it's time to pay the piper.

Lack of draft picks on offense?The Bucs are way past that now and it is not good enough excuse for the poor offensive perfomances the last few years? Carnell, Buenning, Joseph, Trueblood, Stovall, Mahan, Clayton, Smith.

Again, really? All those guys were drafted within less than 2 years ago with the expection of Clayton who has a year on them all. Do you expect them to all be pro bowlers in their 1st and 2nd years? What this team is missing are the talented players in their primes. Guys who are 4,5,6,7 year guys. What we have are 1,2 and 3 year young guys and and 30+ year old vets. That's where those draft picks are missed. THe Glazers and Mckay gave up 7 premium 1st and 2nd round picks to try and win a championship. That's a pool of 7 possible talented players, that would now be in the prime of their careers that we are missing. IMO, that is absoulutely HUGE.

Exactly! That is nearly impossible to overcome. It has been a long time coming for this to finally bite us and it has.

Its evident that this team is horrible. Terrible. Frightfully bad. This is Richard Williamson bad. This is Leeman Bennett bad. This is wear a paperbag to the next home game bad.

I am disgusted with this team today. Just disgusted.

LOL. I got "tagged" last nite for expressing something along those same lines. The display we saw last nite was downright embarassing.