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OpTiOnMaStA

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#15 : November 06, 2007, 02:29:57 PM

is it just me or is Wade's snaps on shotgun formations ridicuously low?

They seem ridiculously low to me too. It's like he never snapped from the shotgun in his professional career as a Buc! :)

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#16 : November 06, 2007, 02:54:17 PM

So is a bad performance at Center, to most people...and you won't see Wade starting next year, either.

But that wasn't your argument. You said that you weren't hearing or reading any negative statements about Wade, so, by your conclusion, he must be playing well. I give you another case of the same point and you disregard it by saying "Do you see Grads starting anymore?" I'm pretty sure if Buenning was healthy, he would be playing Center right now. Or they might upgrade in FA like they did with Garcia over Grads.

Draw whatever conclusions you want to, but you have no business drawing mine.

My point was that this line is improving this year, more than it has for a long time, with him as the only real veteran starter. Playing at what is considered the QB of the OL. If he was as bad as what you evidently think, he'd have been replaced by now, dontcha think? Grads was replaced, Will Allen was replaced, Anthony Davis was replaced, Simeon Rice.. etc. and it's not like a center is the hardest position to find. Bottom line, if you're not performing well enough, you're not going to be around for long.

Now, you do realize that Wade's been here since 2003, right? The same year we drafted our last center, Austin King. King is long gone, and we haven't signed any FA centers that I can recall since.. whenever. Why not?

And now all of sudden, with the OL beginning to show more life than it has since 2002, some contend that Wade's stinking up the joint? That just doesn't make sense to me...    ???




Balls Out

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#17 : November 06, 2007, 03:01:19 PM

I don't think Muir is developing the players to the best of their abilities, either. I'd be more inclined to say that Kromer is better than Muir.

Based on what exactly????

"Some birds can only have a back archer if you flick the starter button - spocking the G spot doesn't work on all of them"

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#18 : November 06, 2007, 03:06:17 PM

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And now all of sudden, with the OL beginning to show more life than it has since 2002, some contend that Wade's stinking up the joint? That just doesn't make sense to me...   

Take off the homer glasses and see that Wade is not that good and he is a weak link on this o-line!

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#19 : November 06, 2007, 03:09:38 PM

The o-line hs played very well this year. I Am very impressed with all the young guys we have on the line. If they can keep it up, we will have a great o-line for years. All we need is a better center than Wade and our o-line should dominate in a few years.


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#20 : November 06, 2007, 03:10:30 PM

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And now all of sudden, with the OL beginning to show more life than it has since 2002, some contend that Wade's stinking up the joint? That just doesn't make sense to me...

Take off the homer glasses and see that Wade is not that good and he is a weak link on this o-line!


Homer glasses?  :D

I'm probably one of the most pragmatic posters on this board.


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#21 : November 06, 2007, 03:26:45 PM

The line, with the exception of Wade and Davin Joseph has been pretty impressive. Joseph needs to get his head out of his butt and stop making stupid penalties. Wade needs to retire because he makes the calls but he can't block in this league at this point in time.

I'm very pleased with Penn. Luke might be gone or a backup next year. Hopefully Buenning can be the guy at OC next year.
If that scenario plays out, the Bucs could be looking a huge mauling type of O Line that would be here for a long time and that is something that has been needed since 1976!!!

Truths:
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alldaway

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#22 : November 06, 2007, 03:27:33 PM

Lets see if you are the most pragmatic poster on this board.... 8)

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My point was that this line is improving this year, more than it has for a long time, with him as the only real veteran starter.

So if Wade was out with an injury but Petitgout was still healthy and the o-line still showed improvement would you credit LP with the improvement? How about Lehr who would take over if Wade went out?

Having a veteran helps but at the end of the day the young players are responsible for the steps they take foward and back.  Objectively speaking Wade's impact on the improvement of this line has been minimal while you have attempted to drum it up in the oppostie direction.  If Wade was the cog that you think he is the o-line would have been improved a long time ago.

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If he was as bad as what you evidently think, he'd have been replaced by now, dontcha think? Grads was replaced, Will Allen was replaced, Anthony Davis was replaced, Simeon Rice.. etc. and it's not like a center is the hardest position to find. Bottom line, if you're not performing well enough, you're not going to be around for long.

Buenning is injured and still learning the center position.  Lehr can play but he does not offer anything new that Wade does not posses (both are not strong at the point of attack).  Due to Wade's familiarity with the offense system as well he is a stop gap right now and that does not mean he is not a weak link.

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Now, you do realize that Wade's been here since 2003, right? The same year we drafted our last center, Austin King. King is long gone, and we haven't signed any FA centers that I can recall since.. whenever. Why not?

Wade's play had only started to degrade starting from last year (and maybe the late 2005 season).  Nothing wrong with Wade before that time so I do not follow that arguement.

King was recommended to McKay by the great "Muir"... enough said.  With that said Mahan is showing he is a capable center with the Steelers as of now, Ross Huchstein showed he was a capable center briefly as a Patriot but was cut by Muir...basically Muir sucks at evaluating talent along the o-line...hence why Wade has yet to be replaced while two possible replacements (Hochstein and Mahan) for Wade are not here to take over for Wade.....  Muir's hand picked players either suck, are played out of position, or are not giving the oppurtunity to showcase their worth.

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and we haven't signed any FA centers that I can recall since.. whenever. Why not?

Lehr is a C/G but still learning the system while Buenning is healing up.

If you call that pragmatic then I must be a Myamarian warlord who is scared of woman's underwear. :D

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#23 : November 06, 2007, 03:30:37 PM

ADW,
I agree that Wade is the weak link in regards to blocking, but you can't underestimate his value in getting the young players lined up in their assignments based on what he sees.  I too want to see him replaced with a better blocker, but not at the expense of what he brings to the table in helping the youngsters.

Truths:
1.  Never have an argument with an idiot.  They will drag you down to their level and then beat you with their experience.
2.  For some it would be better if they remained silent and be thought a fool than to speak and erase all doubt.

alldaway

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#24 : November 06, 2007, 03:36:38 PM

Mahan doesn't seem to have a problem playing center as a Steeler.  Difference is that he is younger and has a future in this league.  While Wade is his twilight.

And to be honesst whether Mahan/Lehr/Wade line up at center you will still an improvement along the o-line.  Again Wade's value is overstated when there are capable centers that can do his job.




gone

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#25 : November 06, 2007, 04:01:15 PM

is it just me or is Wade's snaps on shotgun formations ridicuously low?

They seem ridiculously low to me too. It's like he never snapped from the shotgun in his professional career as a Buc! :)

I think it's more of an issue of him wearing down a bit.  It wasn't much of  a problem earlier.

So is a bad performance at Center, to most people...and you won't see Wade starting next year, either.

But that wasn't your argument. You said that you weren't hearing or reading any negative statements about Wade, so, by your conclusion, he must be playing well. I give you another case of the same point and you disregard it by saying "Do you see Grads starting anymore?" I'm pretty sure if Buenning was healthy, he would be playing Center right now. Or they might upgrade in FA like they did with Garcia over Grads.

Draw whatever conclusions you want to, but you have no business drawing mine.

My point was that this line is improving this year, more than it has for a long time, with him as the only real veteran starter. Playing at what is considered the QB of the OL. If he was as bad as what you evidently think, he'd have been replaced by now, dontcha think? Grads was replaced, Will Allen was replaced, Anthony Davis was replaced, Simeon Rice.. etc. and it's not like a center is the hardest position to find. Bottom line, if you're not performing well enough, you're not going to be around for long.

Now, you do realize that Wade's been here since 2003, right? The same year we drafted our last center, Austin King. King is long gone, and we haven't signed any FA centers that I can recall since.. whenever. Why not?

And now all of sudden, with the OL beginning to show more life than it has since 2002, some contend that Wade's stinking up the joint? That just doesn't make sense to me...    ???

The fact that the line is better does not indicate that Wade is not stinking it up.  One does not necessarily flow from the other. He's making the proper calls at the line, but his lack of strength is a problem.  We DID bring in an FA center, guy named Lehr, he's our backup.  And we drafted a LG with a clear hope of moving Dan to C.  A lot of moves this year were made with money concerns.  It was pretty clear we wanted Al Johnson (forget the name), but couldn't land him or wouldn't pay that much. 

It's not as black and white as "you stink you don't play".  Wade looked better last year, but was known to be an issue we wanted to improve on.  Not a must fix, but a problem that could be a lower priority.  But there's the small matter of finding someone who is a significant improvement at the right price.

Wade isn't horrible, but he's not even average physically at this point.  Unfortunately, he's the best of what we've got right now, the only real vet left there.  He definitely will not be back next year as a starter, and possibly not at all.

They didn't have to to, a bad performance at QB is pretty much obvious.

Do you see Grads starting anymore?


As noted above, so is the performance at C.  If you don't see it, then your not watching him.  Tape the games and watch them over. 

keeponbucn

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#26 : November 06, 2007, 04:33:17 PM

Can't remember seeing any TE backing up Penn. And we didn't hear anything from Berry all day.

Exactly! We don't hear Penn's name during the games, that's how you know he's performing well. Couple that with your observation and he could be a gem at LT. Hell, does anyone remember AD at LT last year? Smith lived on his hip during games, it was AWFUL.

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#27 : November 06, 2007, 04:34:12 PM

Lets see if you are the most pragmatic poster on this board.... 8)

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So if Wade was out with an injury but Petitgout was still healthy and the o-line still showed improvement would you credit LP with the improvement? How about Lehr who would take over if Wade went out?

Having a veteran helps but at the end of the day the young players are responsible for the steps they take foward and back.  Objectively speaking Wade's impact on the improvement of this line has been minimal while you have attempted to drum it up in the oppostie direction.  If Wade was the cog that you think he is the o-line would have been improved a long time ago.

If you would bother to read my initial post in this thread, you'd see that I said..

"Aside from penalties, it's difficult to single out any one player's performance on a unit that has to function as such. Without Wade's veteran leadership, who knows how this line would work. I know he's no HOF'r, but he's doing something right with these kids around him. Matter of fact, the only negative statements I've read about him are on these boards.."

Now where was I "drumming up" anything? The fact of the matter is, he's the center on an OL that is improving with 1 rookie and 3 second year players. If you can't recognize the value a veteran center brings to that situation, then you need to follow football a little closer..

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Buenning is injured and still learning the center position.  Lehr can play but he does not offer anything new that Wade does not posses (both are not strong at the point of attack).  Due to Wade's familiarity with the offense system as well he is a stop gap right now and that does not mean he is not a weak link.

The fact that he is healthy obviously means that he's a better option than Buenning, and Lehr is nothing more than a backup anyway. I'm not saying we can't do better, I never did, but you're selling the man short. Plain and simple. He's part of an OL, a functioning unit by nature, so to single him out as a "weakest link" on a line that's clearly improving is senseless. If Wade was so weak, the OL's performance as a whole would reflect it, and we wouldn't even be talking about improvement at all..

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Wade's play had only started to degrade starting from last year (and maybe the late 2005 season).  Nothing wrong with Wade before that time so I do not follow that arguement.


King was recommended to McKay by the great "Muir"... enough said.  With that said Mahan is showing he is a capable center with the Steelers as of now, Ross Huchstein showed he was a capable center briefly as a Patriot but was cut by Muir...basically Muir sucks at evaluating talent along the o-line...hence why Wade has yet to be replaced while two possible replacements (Hochstein and Mahan) for Wade are not here to take over for Wade.....  Muir's hand picked players either suck, are played out of position, or are not giving the oppurtunity to showcase their worth.

Perhaps, when this line reaches a point where it becomes stagnant, where there is no measurable advance in performance, you can compare Wade to Hoch or Mahan, but nobody's holding a gun to Gruden's head, who stated himself “John Wade has really done a great job as the veteran of the bunch, making the calls and delivering the ball and putting our people in position to execute”.

Can't argue with you on Muir. But recommendations aren't the end all to who we draft. It wasn't Muir making the final decision. I'm sure, if he had any input on King, he probably also did on Buenning, Joseph, Trueblood, Sears or any other OL that came into the fold while he was here.


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If you call that pragmatic then I must be a Myamarian warlord who is scared of woman's underwear. :D

Is there a thesaurus or a dictionary in the Myamarian public library? If so, go look up "pragmatic"..  ;)


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#28 : November 06, 2007, 04:55:46 PM

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Aside from penalties, it's difficult to single out any one player's performance on a unit that has to function as such. Without Wade's veteran leadership, who knows how this line would work. I know he's no HOF'r, but he's doing something right with these kids around him. Matter of fact, the only negative statements I've read about him are on these boards.."

I saw Mahan's leadership in action as the Steelers trounced the Ravens on MNF.  Again Wade's value is overstated.  The only negative statements you have read about Wade is on here is due to the fact we are interested in discussion topics like this instead of "Dungy vs Gruden" type of discussions.

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Now where was I "drumming up" anything? The fact of the matter is, he's the center on an OL that is improving with 1 rookie and 3 second year players. If you can't recognize the value a veteran center brings to that situation, then you need to follow football a little closer...

What makes Wade's veteran "value" superior than Lehr's or Mahan's? Lehr may be new to the system, but Mahan had more than enough time to learn the Bucs system.  Furthermore if Wade's veteran value is so great as you proclaim why hasn't the o-line improved sooner than as of now since Wade has been here since 2003 as you have pointed out? Since you follow football so much maybe you can elighten me?

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The fact that he is healthy obviously means that he's a better option than Buenning, and Lehr is nothing more than a backup anyway. I'm not saying we can't do better, I never did, but you're selling the man short. Plain and simple. He's part of an OL, a functioning unit by nature, so to single him out as a "weakest link" on a line that's clearly improving is senseless. If Wade was so weak, the OL's performance as a whole would reflect it, and we wouldn't even be talking about improvement at all..

Wade, like Lehr, would be merely a backup on most teams.  Selling the man short? From my perspective you are trying to sell me an ocean in Idaho.

Senseless? No a fair evaluation it is to single him out, but you seem so adamant to defend Wade it seems.  The fact that o-line has not improved until this year (when in fact Wade has been here since 2003) proves that he is not that big of a factor in the improvement of the o-line.  Thank you for reinforcing my point.

It is possible to see improvement with an engine but still have a weak link with the engine.  Just becuase you can not see it does not mean it does not exist.

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Perhaps, when this line reaches a point where it becomes stagnant, where there is no measurable advance in performance, you can compare Wade to Hoch or Mahan, but nobody's holding a gun to Gruden's head, who stated himself “John Wade has really done a great job as the veteran of the bunch, making the calls and delivering the ball and putting our people in position to execute”.

Jon Gruden isn't the GM as that is Bruce Allen's job and has to play the players he is given to him.  Bringing a center in via FA was attempted as been highlighted already in this thread but the asking price was too high.  In addition to that it seems that Mahan was not evaluating properly either and left to enter FA.

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Can't argue with you on Muir. But recommendations aren't the end all to who we draft. It wasn't Muir making the final decision. I'm sure, if he had any input on King, he probably also did on Buenning, Joseph, Trueblood, Sears or any other OL that came into the fold while he was here.

As DTG has pointed out Muir's influence in selection of OL has been slowly taken away over time and Kromer's influence is evident.  Look at the type of OL being brought in (big, athletic OL) compared to Muir's type of o-lineman (smallish, limited athletic ability).

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Is there a thesaurus or a dictionary in the Myamarian public library? If so, go look up "pragmatic

I looked it up and I read that Red Alert is a sophist not a pragmatist.  8)  Keeping trying to sell me that ocean in Idaho....

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#29 : November 06, 2007, 05:14:44 PM

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I saw Mahan's leadership in action as the Steelers trounced the Ravens on MNF.  Again Wade's value is overstated.  The only negative statements you have read about Wade is on here is due to the fact we are interested in discussion topics like this instead of "Dungy vs Gruden" type of discussions.

Amen to that, but I was under the impression Wade was being discussed only because he was a "weak link", which is as big an overstatement as anything, considering the OL's performance.

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What makes Wade's veteran "value" superior than Lehr's or Mahan's? Lehr may be new to the system, but Mahan had more than enough time to learn the Bucs system.  Furthermore if Wade's veteran value is so great as you proclaim why hasn't the o-line improved sooner than as of now since Wade has been here since 2003 as you have pointed out? Since you follow football so much maybe you can elighten me?

Sure, Trueblood and Joseph joined the line last year (2006), Sears and Penn this year (2007). It ain't rocket science.

Better players make a better unit. And now you're witness to these very young players gaining confidence, getting to know each other's tendencies, and being led by a veteran of trench warfare in the NFL. It's a dynamic relationship and it's working. Sure, if we had a HOF center like Jim Otto, Dermonti Dawson or Dwight Stephenson we'd be even better. But we don't. We do, however, have a center who's doing a great job leading these kids. The proof is in the results...

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The fact that he is healthy obviously means that he's a better option than Buenning, and Lehr is nothing more than a backup anyway. I'm not saying we can't do better, I never did, but you're selling the man short. Plain and simple. He's part of an OL, a functioning unit by nature, so to single him out as a "weakest link" on a line that's clearly improving is senseless. If Wade was so weak, the OL's performance as a whole would reflect it, and we wouldn't even be talking about improvement at all..

Wade, like Lehr, would be merely a backup on most teams.  Selling the man short? From my perspective you are trying to sell me an ocean in Idaho.

.etc.. etc..

I looked it up and I read that Red Alert is a sophist not a pragmatist.  8)  Keeping trying to sell me that ocean in Idaho....
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You seem to think that since my perspective is different than yours, I'm trying to convince you of something. That's as wrong as you can be. What you want to think is your business, I respect that, but you're the one taking my opinion on Wade to task, not the other way around..

I stand by my words. You stand by yours, and we all drink our beers..

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