Absolute or Relative?

[dr3z]

Thats the part of religion that I LOVE myself.

How the followers pick and choose which passages to follow and which are left for interpretation.

[3paths]

Relative truth is impossible by definition.

Glad I didn't have to say it.

And Buck It, this thread was not meant to discuss why Christianity is bashed on this board, simply to discuss relative truth, which as John mentioned is impossible. However there were a few of you that chose to take the bait and attempted to make a case against Christianity because of it's exclusive nature. I was also trying to illustrate that those who oppose Christianity also adopt an exclusive belief. Ironic isn't it?

We can start some other threads to discuss these other points, but I think the whole exclusive argument has now been flattened. Either Christians are right or someone else is, or as John pointed out no one is. I'll take option number one and it's my choice to do that. Just as it is each individuals choice to believe what they want to believe in.

They say the single greatest cause for atheism in the world is Christians themselves, who can speak about Jesus with their lips, but contradict their words with their actions. I am guilty of this, as is every Christian. If a "Christian" tells you otherwise they need to check themselves. Televangelists have given Christianity a bad name by preaching false doctrine and stealing peoples money. They use Jesus to rake in the dollars. According to the Bible, false teaching is a sin, as is homosexuality, as is alcholism, as is talking about someone behind their back, as is stealing, and I could go on and on. Homosexuality is no worse in Gods eyes then being a daily drunk. Sin is sin. The Bible very clearly sets that expectation. It is non Christians who elevate the homosexuality topic. They make is sound like that's all that's that we speak about at church. I can't remember the last time it was discussed in church.  Christianity is all about forgiveness. Everyone is welcomed to come and drink from the water of live. Even Charles Manson. But it is not for me to say who is and who isn't saved. Each person has their own relationship with God, and it is between them and God.

If you want to judge Christianity, judge Jesus, judge the Bible and I challenge you to find flaw. If you judge Christians themselves you will very easily find flaw. All day long. I won't deny that. We are hypocrites in our actions. That's also why we understand the need for a savior. Christians make mistakes just like anyone else, Christians sin just like anyone else.

[dr3z]

"I challenge you to find flaw"

Dont dance answer my question.

Deuteronomy 13:6-10

6: If thy brother, the son of thy mother, or thy son, or thy daughter, or the wife of thy
bosom, or thy friend, which is as thine own soul, entice thee secretly, saying, Let us go
and serve other gods, which thou hast not known, thou, nor thy fathers;
7: Namely, of the gods of the people which are round about you, nigh unto thee, or far
off from thee, from the one end of the earth even unto the other end of the earth;
8: Thou shalt not consent unto him, nor hearken unto him; neither shall thine eye pity
him, neither shalt thou spare, neither shalt thou conceal him:
9: But thou shalt surely kill him; thine hand shall be first upon him to put him to death,
and afterwards the hand of all the people.
10: And thou shalt stone him with stones, that he die; because he hath sought to thrust
thee away from the LORD thy God, which brought thee out of the land of Egypt, from the
house of bondage.

[3paths]

"I challenge you to find flaw"

Dont dance answer my question.

Deuteronomy 13:6-10

6: If thy brother, the son of thy mother, or thy son, or thy daughter, or the wife of thy
bosom, or thy friend, which is as thine own soul, entice thee secretly, saying, Let us go
and serve other gods, which thou hast not known, thou, nor thy fathers;
7: Namely, of the gods of the people which are round about you, nigh unto thee, or far
off from thee, from the one end of the earth even unto the other end of the earth;
8: Thou shalt not consent unto him, nor hearken unto him; neither shall thine eye pity
him, neither shalt thou spare, neither shalt thou conceal him:
9: But thou shalt surely kill him; thine hand shall be first upon him to put him to death,
and afterwards the hand of all the people.
10: And thou shalt stone him with stones, that he die; because he hath sought to thrust
thee away from the LORD thy God, which brought thee out of the land of Egypt, from the
house of bondage.

Ok here we go.

1. I was writing my post before you posted yours, so I wasn't dancing.
2. Secondly these verses are old testament law, Jesus came to fulfill the law, so this verse applied to Jews, pre Christ, not Christians. These verses is part of the Jewish faith. So I'm not picking and choosing.
3. A question for you: Where do you establish your morals and define what is a sin? What do you find wrong with these verses?
4. Find a verse that applies to Christians in which you can find flaw. Go to the New Testament.
5. Prior to my explanation if this is the only thing you can find wrong in the Bible, then your case should be against the Jews not Christians. Same God, different beliefs.

So now for the explanation of those verses.

The law at that time found idolatry to be a crime worthy of capital punishment. As some states have deemed that murder is a fine punishable by death. That's all there is to this. The Jews didn't have a savior so their goal was to be righteous and follow the laws as defined by God. It is saying that if anyone, and the point was driven home by using the family which you hold closest to you, leads you away from the one true God, they would lead you to break the first two and most important commandments, which would land you a spot in Hell when you die. Eternal life should take priority over your love for that individual (AT THAT TIME UNDER JEWISH LAW).

I want to make a point clear to you. God established the law for many reasons. The law was created to keep people from harming themselves (such as what people were supposed to eat, or the fact that people should bath on a regular basis, remember medicine had not yet advanced at that point). It was also established to set moral boundaries and establish the definition of sin. If you read in Leviticus, the first few chapters talk about how to atone from your sin. For God it was about obedience. The law was established so that it could set some ground rules for fellowship with God, righteous behavior.

Because of the sin of man, Christ had to come and pay for them. He was tortured, murdered, and then overcame death through resurrection. Once this took place anyone who decided to accept him as savior is redeemed by his blood. If you truly have accepted Christ, you will not WANT to sin inherently, but you still inevitably will.

So I hope I have answered your question. If you have more questions about that verse, go ask someone of Jewish faith.

[dr3z]

The 10 commandments were pre christ, not christians. So you dont believe in those?
You dont belive in Moses? You dont believe in Adam and Eve? You dont believe in Noahs arc?

Please respond I really cant wait for your answer.

"I challenge you to find flaw"

Dont dance answer my question.

Deuteronomy 13:6-10

6: If thy brother, the son of thy mother, or thy son, or thy daughter, or the wife of thy
bosom, or thy friend, which is as thine own soul, entice thee secretly, saying, Let us go
and serve other gods, which thou hast not known, thou, nor thy fathers;
7: Namely, of the gods of the people which are round about you, nigh unto thee, or far
off from thee, from the one end of the earth even unto the other end of the earth;
8: Thou shalt not consent unto him, nor hearken unto him; neither shall thine eye pity
him, neither shalt thou spare, neither shalt thou conceal him:
9: But thou shalt surely kill him; thine hand shall be first upon him to put him to death,
and afterwards the hand of all the people.
10: And thou shalt stone him with stones, that he die; because he hath sought to thrust
thee away from the LORD thy God, which brought thee out of the land of Egypt, from the
house of bondage.

Ok here we go.

1. I was writing my post before you posted yours, so I wasn't dancing.
2. Secondly these verses are old testament law, Jesus came to fulfill the law, so this verse applied to Jews, pre Christ, not Christians. These verses is part of the Jewish faith. So I'm not picking and choosing.
3. A question for you: Where do you establish your morals and define what is a sin? What do you find wrong with these verses?
4. Find a verse that applies to Christians in which you can find flaw. Go to the New Testament.
5. Prior to my explanation if this is the only thing you can find wrong in the Bible, then your case should be against the Jews not Christians. Same God, different beliefs.

So now for the explanation of those verses.

The law at that time found idolatry to be a crime worthy of capital punishment. As some states have deemed that murder is a fine punishable by death. That's all there is to this. The Jews didn't have a savior so their goal was to be righteous and follow the laws as defined by God. It is saying that if anyone, and the point was driven home by using the family which you hold closest to you, leads you away from the one true God, they would lead you to break the first two and most important commandments, which would land you a spot in Hell when you die. Eternal life should take priority over your love for that individual (AT THAT TIME UNDER JEWISH LAW).

I want to make a point clear to you. God established the law for many reasons. The law was created to keep people from harming themselves (such as what people were supposed to eat, or the fact that people should bath on a regular basis, remember medicine had not yet advanced at that point). It was also established to set moral boundaries and establish the definition of sin. If you read in Leviticus, the first few chapters talk about how to atone from your sin. For God it was about obedience. The law was established so that it could set some ground rules for fellowship with God, righteous behavior.

Because of the sin of man, Christ had to come and pay for them. He was tortured, murdered, and then overcame death through resurrection. Once this took place anyone who decided to accept him as savior is redeemed by his blood. If you truly have accepted Christ, you will not WANT to sin inherently, but you still inevitably will.

So I hope I have answered your question. If you have more questions about that verse, go ask someone of Jewish faith.

[3paths]

Your are mis-reading or mis-interpreting what I am saying. I believe in all of the Old Testament. I'm reading the Old Testament right now. The Old Testament has a different purpose. Christians learn about Christ through the NT and following Christ is what Christianity is all about.

The 10 commandments were for Jew not Christians, what this means is that they are not a requirement for Christians to enter Heaven. Christians are required to trust Christ as their savior to enter Heaven and nothing else. Now does that mean we sin and break all the commandments and still get to enter the Heaven? No. Because as it says in 1 John 2:4 if we say we trust him and don't follow what he has commanded then we are lying about our trust in Jesus. At that point one has not truly been saved. Jesus reiterated the commandments, and gave new moral boundaries to Christians. He said you don't have to physically murder someone to commit the sin, all you have to do is think it. But we will sin, and we will break the rules and that's the reason Christ suffered so much in his death.

If I answer from my own head I will fail to answer some or all of your questions. If I get my answer from the Bible, there is not a question that you will be able to ask and find fault in my response, because they will not be my words. I think one of the issues you have with Christianity is your lack of understanding of what it's about to be a Christian. You probably have heard some bits and pieces here and there, and somewhere in all of that you have failed to hear the real truth behind it all. This is not meant to be insulting, I would just suggest trying to understand something better before you try and tear it apart. The Jews did the same thing to Jesus, and came up dumbfounded each time he responded. Since I am not Jesus however, I'm going to miss or be off point at times. That's why I try to answer from the Word.

The 10 commandments were pre christ, not christians. So you dont believe in those?
You dont belive in Moses? You dont believe in Adam and Eve? You dont believe in Noahs arc?

Please respond I really cant wait for your answer.

"I challenge you to find flaw"

Dont dance answer my question.

Deuteronomy 13:6-10

6: If thy brother, the son of thy mother, or thy son, or thy daughter, or the wife of thy
bosom, or thy friend, which is as thine own soul, entice thee secretly, saying, Let us go
and serve other gods, which thou hast not known, thou, nor thy fathers;
7: Namely, of the gods of the people which are round about you, nigh unto thee, or far
off from thee, from the one end of the earth even unto the other end of the earth;
8: Thou shalt not consent unto him, nor hearken unto him; neither shall thine eye pity
him, neither shalt thou spare, neither shalt thou conceal him:
9: But thou shalt surely kill him; thine hand shall be first upon him to put him to death,
and afterwards the hand of all the people.
10: And thou shalt stone him with stones, that he die; because he hath sought to thrust
thee away from the LORD thy God, which brought thee out of the land of Egypt, from the
house of bondage.

Ok here we go.

1. I was writing my post before you posted yours, so I wasn't dancing.
2. Secondly these verses are old testament law, Jesus came to fulfill the law, so this verse applied to Jews, pre Christ, not Christians. These verses is part of the Jewish faith. So I'm not picking and choosing.
3. A question for you: Where do you establish your morals and define what is a sin? What do you find wrong with these verses?
4. Find a verse that applies to Christians in which you can find flaw. Go to the New Testament.
5. Prior to my explanation if this is the only thing you can find wrong in the Bible, then your case should be against the Jews not Christians. Same God, different beliefs.

So now for the explanation of those verses.

The law at that time found idolatry to be a crime worthy of capital punishment. As some states have deemed that murder is a fine punishable by death. That's all there is to this. The Jews didn't have a savior so their goal was to be righteous and follow the laws as defined by God. It is saying that if anyone, and the point was driven home by using the family which you hold closest to you, leads you away from the one true God, they would lead you to break the first two and most important commandments, which would land you a spot in Hell when you die. Eternal life should take priority over your love for that individual (AT THAT TIME UNDER JEWISH LAW).

I want to make a point clear to you. God established the law for many reasons. The law was created to keep people from harming themselves (such as what people were supposed to eat, or the fact that people should bath on a regular basis, remember medicine had not yet advanced at that point). It was also established to set moral boundaries and establish the definition of sin. If you read in Leviticus, the first few chapters talk about how to atone from your sin. For God it was about obedience. The law was established so that it could set some ground rules for fellowship with God, righteous behavior.

Because of the sin of man, Christ had to come and pay for them. He was tortured, murdered, and then overcame death through resurrection. Once this took place anyone who decided to accept him as savior is redeemed by his blood. If you truly have accepted Christ, you will not WANT to sin inherently, but you still inevitably will.

So I hope I have answered your question. If you have more questions about that verse, go ask someone of Jewish faith.

[dr3z]

So you dont practice from the old testament, why do you even have it?

[3paths]

So you dont practice from the old testament, why do you even have it?

No I don't directly practice the Old Testament. I don't go and sacrifice animals to atone for my sin.  Jesus did that for me.

The old testament is a great historical set of documents. It teaches us about the creation of the earth, history of man, moral lessons, and so forth. But the old testament has nothing to do with my salvation. For example Proverbs is a great book for wisdom. There are practical everyday lessons taught in that book. Do I believe everything in the OT is true yes. I believe the entire Bible is the word of God. I'm just saying the Old Testament LAW does not apply to Christians in relation to our salvation. It doesn't mean the law is wrong. The believe in the 10 commandments, they are just not a requirement for my salvation. They are all good and they should be followed, but my actions won't help me get into Heaven, they are just a great representation of what is in my heart. So by nature my actions should be good, they will not always be however. That's why God sent his Son to die. I could feed the world, if I don't trust Christ as my savior, it does me no good.

[dr3z]

"I believe the entire Bible is the word of God"

What Deuteronomy 13:6-10  means to me is:

If someone tries to take you away from your God. Kill him/her.

"I believe in the 10 commandments"

Thats what im talking about, how can you pick and choose which parts of the bible to believe in and which to write off as "old laws"...

[3paths]

Again, it goes back to your misunderstanding. Let me clearly restate and hopefully this time you get it.

1. I believe the whole Bible

2. OT Law application to Christians is for information only. I believe the word of the OT to be the word of God, meant for the Jews not for me. As I mentioned earlier, Christ came to fulfill the law, so Christians are to follow Christ. The Jews are Gods people, Christians are Gentiles. This law applies to Jews not Gentiles. I'm not picking and choosing, I'm simply following the instructions. It's a matter of knowing what applies to you. Everything in the NT applies to Christians. The OT serves other purposes, but we are not required to live by it.  It helps put the pieces together about life before Christ. It is profitable information that can help us learn about God. It shows examples of faith. It shows the trials of a man who had it all and lost everything. These books are very helpful.

The OT is broken up into a few sections
 - The Law
 - History
 - Poetry
 - Prophesy

The Law is not a requirement for salvation, but helps Christians understand the morality of God.


WE ARE SIMPLY REQUIRED TO ACCEPT CHRIST AS OUR SAVIOR. I'm really not sure how else to explain this.

3. One final point, this one is new. My goal is not to convert you or anyone else. I can tell you about the Gospel, and it's up to you what you do with it. I hope your choice is to learn more about God and accept Christ, but I know that it's not up to me. It's up to you. Your choice your decision.

"I believe the entire Bible is the word of God"

What Deuteronomy 13:6-10  means to me is:

If someone tries to take you away from your God. Kill him/her.

"I believe in the 10 commandments"

Thats what im talking about, how can you pick and choose which parts of the bible to believe in and which to write off as "old laws"...

[3paths]

As I mentioned before the Bible says it best not me:

Let us look at Matt 5:17-18 a little bit closer: "Do not think that I have come to abolish the Law or the Prophets; I have not come to abolish them but to fulfill them. I tell you the truth, until heaven and earth disappear, not the smallest letter, not the least stroke of a pen, will by any means disappear from the Law until everything is accomplished."

First of all, Jesus is talking about "the Law" and "the Prophets". This was the way people of His day refers to the Bible, which we now refer to as the "Old Testament"! The "law" contains all of God's commandments. Jesus clearly says that He did not come to abolish the Old Testament nor its laws, but to fulfill them. What does "fulfill" mean? Let us look to the Bible for clarification.

Matt 1:22-23 "All this took place to fulfill what the Lord had said through the prophet: "The virgin will be with child and will give birth to a son, and they will call him Immanuel"-which means, "God with us.""

Matt 2:14-15 "So he got up, took the child and his mother during the night and left for Egypt, 1where he stayed until the death of Herod. And so was fulfilled what the Lord had said through the prophet: "Out of Egypt I called my son.""

Matt 8:17 "This was to fulfill what was spoken through the prophet Isaiah: "He took up our infirmities and carried our diseases.""

John 19:28-29 "Later, knowing that all was now completed, and so that the Scripture would be fulfilled, Jesus said, "I am thirsty.""

"Fulfilled" clearly means completed. The shadow has met its reality. It has been accomplished.

In this context we can better understand Matt 5:18-19: "Until heaven and earth disappear, not the smallest letter, not the least stroke of a pen, will by any means disappear from the Law until everything is accomplished." God's law was not abolished. It was fulfilled in Jesus Christ. The shadow found its reality!

In this context, we can also understand Matt 5:19 "Anyone who breaks one of the least of these commandments and teaches others to do the same will be called least in the kingdom of heaven, but whoever practices and teaches these commands will be called great in the kingdom of heaven."

This text is followed by verse 20: "For I tell you that unless your righteousness surpasses that of the Pharisees and the teachers of the law, you will certainly not enter the kingdom of heaven." In other words, no one can enter the kingdom of heaven, for: Rom 3:23 ". . . all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God" All have transgressed God's laws! We are all sinners! None of us is righteous! Is there any hope for us?

Yes in the fulfillment of Jesus on the cross, Rom 3:24-25 "and are justified freely by his grace through the redemption that came by Christ Jesus."

[dr3z]

"I believe the whole Bible"

Is Deuteronomy not part of the bible?

[3paths]

Dude I'm really done arguing with you.

[3paths]

But for the final time, yes I believe in those verses that you listed. I never said I didn't BELIEVE in them, and I think I explained the meaning. People are not judged for following the law. Before Christ they were. After Christ, people are now judged for whether or not they believe in Him.  The verse below sums it up. Do with it what you want.

John 14:6

Jesus said to him, "I am the way, and the truth, and the life; no one comes to the Father but through Me.

And back to the original point of this thread, He is the truth, the absolute one

[dr3z]

Who's arguing? I just would like to be enlightened on particular subjects....

Dude I'm really done arguing with you.