Absolute or Relative?

[Booker]

How old is the Earth?

[3paths]

How old is the Earth?

I fail to see the relevance.

Islam accepts Jesus as one of the great prophets and believes all his teachings to be inspired by God. 

The Muslim view of Jesus, for those that are interested:
part 1:
part 2:
part 3:
part 4:
part 5:

[Boid Fink]

How old is the Earth?

How old is time?

[buckit]

It means we should throw rocks at Tom Cruise.

LMAO!  There's a dogma I can get behind!!!

[buckit]

Relative truth is impossible by definition.

Glad I didn't have to say it.

And Buck It, this thread was not meant to discuss why Christianity is bashed on this board, simply to discuss relative truth, which as John mentioned is impossible. However there were a few of you that chose to take the bait and attempted to make a case against Christianity because of it's exclusive nature. I was also trying to illustrate that those who oppose Christianity also adopt an exclusive belief. Ironic isn't it?

We can start some other threads to discuss these other points, but I think the whole exclusive argument has now been flattened. Either Christians are right or someone else is, or as John pointed out no one is. I'll take option number one and it's my choice to do that. Just as it is each individuals choice to believe what they want to believe in.

They say the single greatest cause for atheism in the world is Christians themselves, who can speak about Jesus with their lips, but contradict their words with their actions. I am guilty of this, as is every Christian. If a "Christian" tells you otherwise they need to check themselves. Televangelists have given Christianity a bad name by preaching false doctrine and stealing peoples money. They use Jesus to rake in the dollars. According to the Bible, false teaching is a sin, as is homosexuality, as is alcholism, as is talking about someone behind their back, as is stealing, and I could go on and on. Homosexuality is no worse in Gods eyes then being a daily drunk. Sin is sin. The Bible very clearly sets that expectation. It is non Christians who elevate the homosexuality topic. They make is sound like that's all that's that we speak about at church. I can't remember the last time it was discussed in church. Christianity is all about forgiveness. Everyone is welcomed to come and drink from the water of live. Even Charles Manson. But it is not for me to say who is and who isn't saved. Each person has their own relationship with God, and it is between them and God.

If you want to judge Christianity, judge Jesus, judge the Bible and I challenge you to find flaw. If you judge Christians themselves you will very easily find flaw. All day long. I won't deny that. We are hypocrites in our actions. That's also why we understand the need for a savior. Christians make mistakes just like anyone else, Christians sin just like anyone else.

Regardless of the point of the thread, the question was brought up.  Ergo, I answered it.  And if you want to find flaws (as in multiple) in the Bible, just compare it to history. 

[buckit]

How old is the Earth?

I fail to see the relevance.

There are none so blind as those who will not see...

You fail to see the relevance?  YOU challenged us to find one flaw in the Bible.  The Bible claims the Earth was created in 7 days, 6,000 years ago.  Do you believe that?  Yes or No.

[John Galt?]

How old is the Earth?

I fail to see the relevance.

There are none so blind as those who will not see...

You fail to see the relevance? YOU challenged us to find one flaw in the Bible. The Bible claims the Earth was created in 7 days, 6,000 years ago. Do you believe that? Yes or No.

The bible doesn't claim that.  In Genesis the Sun wasn't created untill the fourth day therefore the word ''day'' cannot refer to a solar day.  The word ''day'' is merely a literary conveyance to represent a period of time for which no word existed.  Words like era, eon, epoch, did not exist when Moses or whoever wrote it.

And the whole 6,000 year thing was something someone in the 18th century came up with by counting begets in Numbers, and isn't in the bible at all.

[buckit]

Oh, please.  Stating that God created the Sun in 4 days is no more logical than the claim that Apollo drove his firey chariot across the sky every day.  They're just myths. 

[alldaway]

People thought the Trojan War was a myth as well...it is dangerous to call things myths without being certain that they are indeed myths....

[ufojoe]

I'm curious to hear 3path's opinion on the age of the Earth and Noah's Ark too.
It may not be relevant to this conversation but I'm curious to hear the answer.

I'm reading a UFO related book right now. The chapter which I just read dealt
with beliefs. Instead of typing my words again, I'll share with you what this
guy has to say. BTW, he's Jewish, if that matters. He's the guy who pulled all
of the military UFO witnesses together for a press conference in DC several
years ago.

From "Hidden Truth: Forbidden Knowledge," by Steven Greer, M.D.

"Most of the problems we face in our world today, whether they be spiritual and
religious or scientific, political and economic, are all because people are holding
onto some perspective that has nothing to do with the truth but has to do
with their own belief systems and addiction to something that's outdated,
and they can't let go of it. This is certainly true of scientists. There are
countless examples of how the mainstream scientific community has
rejected enormous breakthroughs because it didn't fit into their belief
system.

"This is why I say to people, "One should have very few beliefs, but an
abundance of faith." You can have infinite-faith - but the specific beliefs
you hold need to be minimal. Otherwise, people get trapped in brainwashed
dogma, whether it be scientific or religious. They then become chauvinistic
and egotistically attached to it. And as soon as that happens, one has
stopped searching for the truth.

We need a genuinely humble, universal spirituality. We must want to find
the truth. And if the next door that opens cancels some of our previously
held convictions and beliefs, then so be it. This is one of the reasons why,
whether you're a physician or a scientist or someone doing spiritual work
or an economist, the mind-set of being attached to an idea - as opposed
to being clearly focused on wanting to know the truth - is a hindrance
to finding truth."

[Big_MAC_Buc]

I'm curious to hear 3path's opinion on the age of the Earth and Noah's Ark too.
It may not be relevant to this conversation but I'm curious to hear the answer.

I'm reading a UFO related book right now. The chapter which I just read dealt
with beliefs. Instead of typing my words again, I'll share with you what this
guy has to say. BTW, he's Jewish, if that matters. He's the guy who pulled all
of the military UFO witnesses together for a press conference in DC several
years ago.

From "Hidden Truth: Forbidden Knowledge," by Steven Greer, M.D.

"Most of the problems we face in our world today, whether they be spiritual and
religious or scientific, political and economic, are all because people are holding
onto some perspective that has nothing to do with the truth but has to do
with their own belief systems and addiction to something that's outdated,
and they can't let go of it. This is certainly true of scientists. There are
countless examples of how the mainstream scientific community has
rejected enormous breakthroughs because it didn't fit into their belief
system.

"This is why I say to people, "One should have very few beliefs, but an
abundance of faith." You can have infinite-faith - but the specific beliefs
you hold need to be minimal. Otherwise, people get trapped in brainwashed
dogma, whether it be scientific or religious. They then become chauvinistic
and egotistically attached to it. And as soon as that happens, one has
stopped searching for the truth.

We need a genuinely humble, universal spirituality. We must want to find
the truth. And if the next door that opens cancels some of our previously
held convictions and beliefs, then so be it. This is one of the reasons why,
whether you're a physician or a scientist or someone doing spiritual work
or an economist, the mind-set of being attached to an idea - as opposed
to being clearly focused on wanting to know the truth - is a hindrance
to finding truth."

That is a good find, Joe, especially the last paragraph. My only quibble would be with Dr. Greer’s belief in the need for “an abundance of faith.� If he had substituted the word “skepticism� for the word “faith� I would be, more or less, in agreement with him, at least in this statement.

I know that “skepticism� is anathema to the story he is trying to tell; but his statement regarding “faith� seems somewhat contradictory as well because, after all, faith is belief in something without evidence, and I would think that definition also runs counter to the message he is trying to convey.

As Carl Sagan said:
"Extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence."

I believe that applies to all matters of faith.

All in all, though, I like what he had to say about truth.

[ufojoe]

I don't agree. There are many kinds of faith. I have said this before but...

I have faith that my cat will meow as the sun goes down because does it every day and has
yet to let me down. That faith is based on experience. I have faith that my friends will
always be there for me when I need them. In the past, they have never let me down.
I have faith in myself and that every job I take will be a positive experience for me.

Although, I'm not sure that's the kind of faith Greer is referring to.

If Greer is telling the truth about his experiences, then I understand where his
faith (in some kind of higher power) comes from. But it's a personal thing. Unlike evidence,
his experiences that gave him faith can't be shown to others as proof of anything.

[Big_MAC_Buc]

I don't agree. There are many kinds of faith. I have said this before but...

I have faith that my cat will meow as the sun goes down because does it every day and has
yet to let me down. That faith is based on experience. I have faith that my friends will
always be there for me when I need them. In the past, they have never let me down.
I have faith in myself and that every job I take will be a positive experience for me.

Although, I'm not sure that's the kind of faith Greer is referring to.

If Greer is telling the truth about his experiences, then I understand where his
faith (in some kind of higher power) comes from. But it's a personal thing. Unlike evidence,
his experiences that gave him faith can't be shown to others as proof of anything.

Joe,
Faith is belief in something without evidence. You have evidence of your claims based on your observations and experience with your cat and the sun, and your friends, and yourself and your work experiences. You may as well say you have faith that water will flow from your water faucet if you turn the handle. Those are hardly extraordinary claims of faith. It is the claims of government conspiracies, UFOs, ghosts, or other supernatural beings that require extraordinary evidence.

As to whether Dr. Greer is telling the truth about his experiences all I can say is that it is incumbent upon the claimant to produce the evidence. I can only base my opinion on the selection you posted. Personally I thought he was being somewhat disingenuous in his call for “an abundance of faith." That's why I suggested "skepticism" in its place. I perceived his call for faith as running counter to the message he wants to convey, but perhaps not. Perhaps, like you say, he lacks evidence for his experiences and he wants us and the scientific world to suspend reason and accept him on faith. If he was serious or smarter he would ask us to be skeptical of everything and everyone including him. He writes, we decide. That way he might win over at least some of the skeptics…the scientific world, probably not. The true-believers he already has in his pocket.


In spite of what I may perceive to be Dr.Greer's shortcomings, I still believe the last paragraph in his comments applies to all people of faith which, I daresay, includes you and Dr. Greer, as well as to those of us with little or no faith.

“We must want to find the truth.
And if the next door that opens cancels some of our previously held convictions and beliefs, then so be it.
This is one of the reasons why, whether you're a physician or a scientist or someone doing spiritual work
or an economist, the mind-set of being attached to an idea - as opposed
to being clearly focused on wanting to know the truth - is a hindrance
to finding truth."

[ufojoe]

In spite of what I may perceive to be Dr.Greer's shortcomings, I still believe the last paragraph in his comments applies to all people of faith which, I daresay, includes you and Dr. Greer, as well as to those of us with little or no faith.

“We must want to find the truth.
And if the next door that opens cancels some of our previously held convictions and beliefs, then so be it.
This is one of the reasons why, whether you're a physician or a scientist or someone doing spiritual work
or an economist, the mind-set of being attached to an idea - as opposed
to being clearly focused on wanting to know the truth - is a hindrance
to finding truth."

It's not fair to judge Greer on three paragraphs. It's from an entire book. I hand typed those paragraphs
and I'm not hand typing the entire book! :-)

Of course I'm ready to change my opinions on things if evidence is presented that shows me
that my opinions are off base. Since I started getting into this UFO/paranormal stuff heavily,
(1996 or so) my opinions on many of these subjects have gone through major changes.
And if I'm wrong about something, it's no big deal.

Christians (sorry but those are the only folks I have had an abundance of contact with)
have already told me (some on this board) that nothing will ever change their mind
that Jesus was the Son of God. So, it's a waste of time to show any evidence to
them to the contrary.

I am in the middle (lacking a belief) on many things and people get upset by that or
tell me that I am wishy washy and not taking a stand. Well, if I don't have enough
evidence for me to use the B (believe) word, I'm not going to us it.