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DBuc

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: November 17, 2006, 12:05:16 PM

Those guys in high school or college...or even youth league that you played with that always blamed the coach for everything...their lack of playing time, not getting enough carries or shots,etc... Those crazy parents that go to games and blame the coach for their kid's sorry play or lack of playing time... Those guys on the bench that sulked and hoped the player ahead of him got hurt or fouled out so they could get in...They never looked at themselves as players, their ability, their attitude, their knowledge of the system...it was always someone else's fault and to them it was mostly the coaches.

The reason I say this is that any self-respecting former athlete or coach understands that their are a lot of factors that go into a team's poor performance(or even winning performance) that may have nothing to do with the coach.  They also know that they can't make judgements about  coaching because:

1) They are not in the locker room, film room, or practice field observing all that is going on.
2) They are not experts on the system being run or any system in the NFL and so can not make informed judgements on what works or does not against certain teams or defenses...They have no idea about what offensive and defensive audibles are available, who is missing assignments and why certain plays might not have worked.
3) They are not under center and so they don't know what the defense is showing, what reads the QB is being told to make...how stunts are throwing them off, etc...They did not watch the tape on the opponent as well.
4) They do not know what is going in each player's head, what kind of pyschology the coach has to use with each player, etc...
5) They have no idea about the motivational techniques of each coach...this is always the stupidest observation to me...when people complain the team is not being properly motivated...How the heck do they know that?  Because they are not jumping up and down before a game?  A lot of teams jump up and down and lose by 40!

By the way, anyone who has ever played before knows that most teams are motivated before the game...but during the game it is a different situation...The coach has a lot more to do than play cheerleader during the game to keep his players going!  If they can't keep up the level of intensity during the game then it is not a reflection of the coach but the professionalism of the player!   Especially at this level!  High school and youth league yes...professional ranks, no.

I am more sensitive maybe than most on this topic because I am a coach who has worked for 14 years in basketball from the high school and at one point the international club and national team level.   I was fortunate to have had good players, teams and staff for a majority of my time coaching so far...But I have also had experienced a couple of rebuilding years as well and one particularly unlucky one (injuries)...and so my records have changed at times but it does not mean my ability to coach has...

Gruden has proven he can turn a franchise around before with Oakland...He did not go from real good (in Oakland) to great ( Super Bowl here) to terrible (two bad seasons) then great (division title in tough division in the beginning of rebuilding process) and then terrible again...Belicheck didn't suck and then become great, Parcells and Gibbs have not forgotten how to coach, Fisher was not great then horrible...If you have a single rational thought in your head and have played or even coached before you might be able to accept this concept. 

mjs020294

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#1 : November 17, 2006, 12:12:10 PM

ACCOUNTABILITY !!!

It starts at the top of any organisation, and if the company is under-performing on a consistant basis without mitergating circumstances it is always the man making the decisions that goes first.




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#2 : November 17, 2006, 12:28:47 PM

Question: why do you ever fire any coach? Any coach who has a winning season has proven they can win. Did they all go genius to idiot? Did Denny Green forget how to coach? I mean he got a team to 15-1, he's not dumb and his crappy players are why he's 1-9.

I mean this is silly argument. No coach draws up a sack or a blown coverage. Thing is the good coaches manage to consistently be able to win because they put their teams in a position to execute well and at least outperform the level of their talent.

Well, I do think that perception plays a part in it.  If people think that JG isn't the answer, then the franchise suffers, as people don't want to see the game, players don't want to play for the team.

But I really hope that this gets turned around soon, so that JG can put this team where he wants it to be.  I think he needs a "good" 7-9 season next year to stick around.  By "good" 7-9, I mean as opposed to a bad 7-9.  Right now, we're not only 2-7, we're bad 2-7.  :)

DBuc

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#3 : November 17, 2006, 12:31:02 PM

By the way dalbuc, you never responded when I showed you all the other teams who are winning with prime time players...that was to be expected however...

In addressing your question...yes, you can and should fire coaches at times...but it is only the organization itself that can know what is trully going on not some silly, ill-informed fans...Face it...you are on the outside...you have a coach that has won before, has worked with very good coaches and seems to have the respect of many people in the league...As a fan, the best you can do is make judgements on what the coach is doing with the talent he has at the time and...it has been well-documented that the drafts between 1997 to 2002 were absolutely terrible...picks in the next couple of years had been traded away...we were cap strapped...Now we are phasing out the older players, drafting much better, finally have cap room...oh never mind...It is apparent by your posts that you simply will not even attempt to look at anything other then what is made up in your own head.



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#4 : November 17, 2006, 12:34:02 PM

By the way dalbuc, you never responded when I showed you all the other teams who are winning with prime time players...that was to be expected however...

In addressing your question...yes, you can and should fire coaches at times...but it is only the organization itself that can know what is trully going on not some silly, ill-informed fans...Face it...you are on the outside...you have a coach that has won before, has worked with very good coaches and seems to have the respect of many people in the league...As a fan, the best you can do is make judgements on what the coach is doing with the talent he has at the time and...it has been well-documented that the drafts between 1997 to 2002 were absolutely terrible...picks in the next couple of years had been traded away...we were cap strapped...Now we are phasing out the older players, drafting much better, finally have cap room...oh never mind...It is apparent by your posts that you simply will not even attempt to look at anything other then what is made up in your own head.

Jon, shouldn't you be game planning for the Skins and Cowboys ?

alldaway

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#5 : November 17, 2006, 12:48:04 PM

By the way dalbuc, you never responded when I showed you all the other teams who are winning with prime time players...that was to be expected however...

For me it is not about winning or losing at this point.  It is how it is done that is my concern.  I want to see a team inspired starting from the first quarter all the way to quarter four from this point foward.  I want to see improvement and I want to see the team building momentum for next year. Gruden's strength is motivating and right now I am not seeing much of that through the team. 

There is a huge difference between a losing team building momentum compared to a losing team that looks flat.  Lets hope it starts this Sunday. 

watson

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#6 : November 17, 2006, 02:26:54 PM

Those guys in high school or college...or even youth league that you played with that always blamed the coach for everything...their lack of playing time, not getting enough carries or shots,etc... Those crazy parents that go to games and blame the coach for their kid's sorry play or lack of playing time... Those guys on the bench that sulked and hoped the player ahead of him got hurt or fouled out so they could get in...They never looked at themselves as players, their ability, their attitude, their knowledge of the system...it was always someone else's fault and to them it was mostly the coaches.

The reason I say this is that any self-respecting former athlete or coach understands that their are a lot of factors that go into a team's poor performance(or even winning performance) that may have nothing to do with the coach. They also know that they can't make judgements about coaching because:

1) They are not in the locker room, film room, or practice field observing all that is going on.
2) They are not experts on the system being run or any system in the NFL and so can not make informed judgements on what works or does not against certain teams or defenses...They have no idea about what offensive and defensive audibles are available, who is missing assignments and why certain plays might not have worked.
3) They are not under center and so they don't know what the defense is showing, what reads the QB is being told to make...how stunts are throwing them off, etc...They did not watch the tape on the opponent as well.
4) They do not know what is going in each player's head, what kind of pyschology the coach has to use with each player, etc...
5) They have no idea about the motivational techniques of each coach...this is always the stupidest observation to me...when people complain the team is not being properly motivated...How the heck do they know that? Because they are not jumping up and down before a game? A lot of teams jump up and down and lose by 40!

By the way, anyone who has ever played before knows that most teams are motivated before the game...but during the game it is a different situation...The coach has a lot more to do than play cheerleader during the game to keep his players going! If they can't keep up the level of intensity during the game then it is not a reflection of the coach but the professionalism of the player! Especially at this level! High school and youth league yes...professional ranks, no.

I am more sensitive maybe than most on this topic because I am a coach who has worked for 14 years in basketball from the high school and at one point the international club and national team level. I was fortunate to have had good players, teams and staff for a majority of my time coaching so far...But I have also had experienced a couple of rebuilding years as well and one particularly unlucky one (injuries)...and so my records have changed at times but it does not mean my ability to coach has...

Gruden has proven he can turn a franchise around before with Oakland...He did not go from real good (in Oakland) to great ( Super Bowl here) to terrible (two bad seasons) then great (division title in tough division in the beginning of rebuilding process) and then terrible again...Belicheck didn't suck and then become great, Parcells and Gibbs have not forgotten how to coach, Fisher was not great then horrible...If you have a single rational thought in your head and have played or even coached before you might be able to accept this concept.

So true....but way too logical for some since they always know better than the coaches or anyone.

Truths:
1.  Never have an argument with an idiot.  They will drag you down to their level and then beat you with their experience.
2.  For some it would be better if they remained silent and be thought a fool than to speak and erase all doubt.

DBuc

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#7 : November 17, 2006, 04:11:03 PM

Lots of teams try to get  players in this range because they know that not having them is a disaster...like us or Arizona.  You are basically making my argument for me...The Bucs and Cardinals are either way to young at positions or too old... Maybe that explains why their play is so erractic...Oh, no...that can't be...right ?  Explain why if most teams have quality players in this age range( and strive to do so)...why don't these two teams?

Our numbers are not right and it is easy to see why...We have drafted like garbage since 1997 and our cap was a mess.  Things are looking up though with solid drafting the last three years, and $25+ million cap room next year.

By the way, I live in Atlanta...You should listen to talk radio here or see there message boards...I have a bunch of Falcons fans for friends here and guess what they are wondering?  What is with all these free agent busts on the Falcons?  Why did they trade a third round pick to move up for Jimmy Williams when they could have picked Richard Marshall?  They have no promising young lineman...no safetys...There best players are from a different era(Reeves)...and oh, by the way...they have one of the highest payrolls in the league...Sound familiar?

alldaway

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#8 : November 17, 2006, 04:17:09 PM

Lots of teams try to get  players in this range because they know that not having them is a disaster...like us or Arizona.  You are basically making my argument for me...The Bucs and Cardinals are either way to young at positions or too old... Maybe that explains why their play is so erractic...Oh, no...that can't be...right ?  Explain why if most teams have quality players in this age range( and strive to do so)...why don't these two teams?

Our numbers are not right and it is easy to see why...We have drafted like garbage since 1997 and our cap was a mess.  Things are looking up though with solid drafting the last three years, and $25+ million cap room next year.

By the way, I live in Atlanta...You should listen to talk radio here or see there message boards...I have a bunch of Falcons fans for friends here and guess what they are wondering?  What is with all these free agent busts on the Falcons?  Why did they trade a third round pick to move up for Jimmy Williams when they could have picked Richard Marshall?  They have no promising young lineman...no safetys...There best players are from a different era(Reeves)...and oh, by the way...they have one of the highest payrolls in the league...Sound familiar?

You do realize your entire arguement is destroyed by the fact that the year the Raiders and Bucs made it the Super Bowl both were regarded as two of the oldest teams in the league?

DBuc

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#9 : November 17, 2006, 05:57:15 PM

So let's hear it...A team is full of young players and old players but hardly any quality players in their prime (which is the result of cap hell and  poor drafts over a period of time)...the inability to add any free agents of note, starting a rookie 6th round quarterback and having the league's toughest schedule to boot...and they are not playing well...this is all on the coach?  Remember, you said that the Patriots and Steelers did it without prime age players and I showed you that they did (they had a ton on defense actually)...and now you say everyone has these players...So you changed your mind...But you did not answer why we don't have any?   Oh wait...it is still Gruden...  Geez, you are such a waste of time...You sound just like the kid or parent who always blamed the coach...


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#10 : November 17, 2006, 06:20:04 PM

I mainly blame Dungy for the situation we are in now.   If he had gotten the job done, we wouldn't have lost 2 first and 2 second round picks for Gruden.   We'd already traded away 2 number ones for Keyshawn and a first and 2nd for Kenyatta.   You can't go without draft picks for long without suffering.   

I personally thought Gruden called a helluva game against the Panthers.   But players just didn't execute.    Some blame has to go to Gruden, but he still has through next year before I even start complaining about him given the circumstances.

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#11 : November 17, 2006, 06:22:51 PM



I personally thought Gruden called a helluva game against the Panthers. But players just didn't execute. Some blame has to go to Gruden, but he still has through next year before I even start complaining about him given the circumstances.
Agreed!

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