Welcome, Guest
Pewter Report  >>  Boards  >>  The Red Board (Moderators: 3rd String Kicker, PRPatrol)  >>  Topic: 5 Division Championships in 10 Years! « previous next »
Page: 1 2 3 4 ... 20

yuccaneers

*
Hall of Famer
******
Posts : 2374
Offline
#15 : December 05, 2007, 07:26:39 PM

Chev, I do understand that, but to fall from first to worse after almost every division title is a bit extreme. would like to see Gruden be able to do it two years in a row, that is my own opinion. But he has as far as the surface is concerned seems to have changed and willing to do what is best suited for his players to have success rather then refuse like in years past. This by far is his best coaching job he has done since he has been here, even including th magical superbowl run.

In Football, RESPECT is never given freely by your opponent. It must be TAKEN from them...VIOLENTLY

Great players cost a lot of money but help win games. High-priced players - a byproduct of poorly run front offices with bad scouting departments - only cost a lot of money.
"Our greatest glory consists not in never falling, but in rising every time we fall."
Oliver Goldsmith

GrudenFan63

******
Hall of Famer

Posts : 4762
Offline
#16 : December 05, 2007, 07:34:22 PM

yuc, I understand what you're saying. In the other five years, Gruden's teams were 8-8 (twice), 7-9, 5-11, and 4-12. The last two years in Oakland and the first one in Tampa were equally matched in terms of the record. However, it's been up followed the next year by down ever since then. I'd like to see an equally productive outcome next season.

_________________________________________________________
How the heck did I get old enough to have a kid in college?

alldaway

******
Hall of Famer

Posts : 37077
Offline
#17 : December 05, 2007, 07:39:01 PM

Quote
Chev, I do understand that, but to fall from first to worse after almost every division title is a bit extreme

I agree.

But is the mechanic that is parity at work that makes that possible?  Considering that as each year passes the data continues to mount points to huge turnover of division winners/playoff participants?  I am not sure to be honest.

Gruden's two bad years were clearly 2004 and 2006.   2004 was clearly a brick wall the team ran into when trying to reload in 2003-2004.  So that downyear is understandable IMVHO.

But 2006 is a big question mark!

 Are 2006 type seasons on the horizon?  Lots of peaks but also lots of valleys? Is that what Gruden's teams are about?  Or the Bucs will never be in a position where they do not have an experienced QB leading the offense?  Lots of things to take into consideration as time passes and the picture slowly clears.

yuccaneers

*
Hall of Famer
******
Posts : 2374
Offline
#18 : December 05, 2007, 07:42:04 PM

Well, how many fans are willing to live with  a two year span at the most being up and in the playoffs then have a few down eyars, all because it takes a veteran qb to run the west coast rather then drafting and grooming the right guy now?

In Football, RESPECT is never given freely by your opponent. It must be TAKEN from them...VIOLENTLY

Great players cost a lot of money but help win games. High-priced players - a byproduct of poorly run front offices with bad scouting departments - only cost a lot of money.
"Our greatest glory consists not in never falling, but in rising every time we fall."
Oliver Goldsmith



Guest
#19 : December 05, 2007, 07:43:05 PM

the problem  with that is even though he has 5 division title in 10 years since he has been the coach here he has also laid an egg the following year, it is great that when things are going good he is the coach you want calling the plays, but what happens if the Glazers sign him to an extension and he stumbles next season that is a pattern that cant be denied. I thing he is how ever starting to change and mature but would like to see what next season brings before handing out a contract extension.

The so called "pattern" is due to extenuating circumstances. Its almost like teh argument "Gruden cant develop a young QB. Im interested in researching every Qb Gruden has ever caoched undee the age of 30 since his Philly days, but Im sure the list is headed by Chris Simms and Marques Tuiasisopo. Give him a 1st or 2nd round talent that fits his offense and this myth will quickly be discarded

When things are going good, Gruden is a good caoch. When things are going bad, Gruden is a good coach. His so called emergence from bad caoch to good caoch to bad coach again is laughable to me

alldaway

******
Hall of Famer

Posts : 37077
Offline
#20 : December 05, 2007, 07:47:52 PM

Quote
Well, how many fans are willing to live with  a two year span at the most being up and in the playoffs then have a few down eyars, all because it takes a veteran qb to run the west coast rather then drafting and grooming the right guy now?

That is a fair question.

Considering there will always be up/down years to aging roster/salary cap mechanism tearing away I am okay with it to a degree.

But the only teams that have defied the parity cycle of high/low has been the Colts, Patriots, and to a lesser degree even the Eagles.  But even having a franchise caliber QB you still are not guaranteed continued, sustained success (eg. Carson Palmer).

The 49ers may have to start to square one again if Smith is not the guy at QB.  So there will always be advantages/disadvantages with a veteran QB versus the chance of finding a franchise QB.

Chucky4mayor

****
Starter

Posts : 923
Offline
#21 : December 05, 2007, 07:49:15 PM

nobody has answered my question.  Would you rather have been a Braves fan the last decade or a Marlins fan?   I'll take the 2 championships over the 10 straight playoff ousts anyday.

yuccaneers

*
Hall of Famer
******
Posts : 2374
Offline
#22 : December 05, 2007, 07:50:38 PM

But, when do the excuses stop? every team faces the same things and dont go from being good to bad over night like we have seen over the past six season here. I am all for Gruden to get a contract extension, aI for one do not want to have to start over from square one, because that could mean a whole new defense staff as well.

Just would like it to be more of a gradual incline and decline rather then the huge drops and rises that we as fans have seen lately.

Now as far as who he has had in the way of drafted qbs and the talent level I think you are right and Simms was taken in the third round that doesnt fit his system while Tuiasisopo was taken in the second round. would it make a difference if they were both first round picks most likely not.

Just would like a qb that can be here for more then 2 years, maybe that is asking for to much.

In Football, RESPECT is never given freely by your opponent. It must be TAKEN from them...VIOLENTLY

Great players cost a lot of money but help win games. High-priced players - a byproduct of poorly run front offices with bad scouting departments - only cost a lot of money.
"Our greatest glory consists not in never falling, but in rising every time we fall."
Oliver Goldsmith

alldaway

******
Hall of Famer

Posts : 37077
Offline
#23 : December 05, 2007, 07:55:18 PM

Quote
But, when do the excuses stop? every team faces the same things and dont go from being good to bad over night like we have seen over the past six season here. I am all for Gruden to get a contract extension, aI for one do not want to have to start over from square one, because that could mean a whole new defense staff as well.

Just would like it to be more of a gradual incline and decline rather then the huge drops and rises that we as fans have seen lately.

Well the 2004 season is understandable how they went quickly bad when they should have begun the rebuilding a year earlier but it did not happen until 2005 that the process commenced.

As for the gradual inclince and decline I fear those days may be gone.  I am tempted to say it is becuase of parity but I am still not convinced.  But the evidence is staggering if you think about it and can't be ignored.

How can a Saints team go from being the top to the bottom so quickly?  It's not like they lost talent nor had an aging roster.  Bress wasn't injured so it is more than what we can truly quantify and observe as to why the huge rises/falls of teams throughout the NFL takes place.



Chucky4mayor

****
Starter

Posts : 923
Offline
#24 : December 05, 2007, 07:57:59 PM

But, when do the excuses stop? every team faces the same things and dont go from being good to bad over night like we have seen over the past six season here.

but how many have gone from bad to good overnight like we have seen twice here?  i think people just need to realize the NFL isn't like MLB or NBA.  It's pretty hard to sustain greatness.  Im content knowing that Gruden is CAPABLE of putting a good team together and winning a SB.



Guest
#25 : December 05, 2007, 07:59:04 PM

Teams like Baltimore, San Fran, J-Ville ALL went from good to bad overnight. They had to purge their entire roster because of irresponsible handling of the salary cap and in some cases draft picks too. Well in our case, we badly mishandled the salary cap and got zero use out of our draft picks fro several years

Why would you compare this team to an up and down team like the Marlins? I think we are in position to have sustained success now that we are in incredible salary cap shape, draft picks every year, and young talent that is already performing well.

As far as the QB situation. How can you clame Gruden for the revolving door. We had time and draft pick invested in Chris SImms and Gruden couldnt just discard him even though he may not have brought him in. So Simms has kept Gruden from invetsing highly in a young stud QB, whether Gruden likes it or not. We have brought in cheap insurance plans like Griese, McCown, Rattay, Gradkowski, Rob Johnson, etc but having SImms here has handcuffed us from going in another direction with the position. We needed to bring in GArcia rathe rthan a young inexperienced guy this offseason, because Simms was still here and was still the guy who got us a division championship and left his spleen on the field. We needed to let him compete, and werent really in position to bring in a young QB

I think it is easy to understand. When Simms finally goes to a better situation foor his skillset, and Garcia has retired, you all will see Gruden bring in a young franchise QB who he will stick with. He has never had that opportunity before, and thats why there has always been a revolving door

GrudenFan63

******
Hall of Famer

Posts : 4762
Offline
#26 : December 05, 2007, 08:00:39 PM

I think that's what may separate those "top tier" teams from the rest. In the past few years, you can pretty much take a guess at what the play-off teams will be at season's end. You know you'll probably see the Colts, the Patriots, or the Cowboys. Before the season even starts, it's easy to pick those teams. It's consistency. They may stumble throughout the year, but those teams generally end up with winning records. They're the dominant teams in the NFL. Personally, I think it's them and then the rest. There is a gap there. You can say the Patriots got there by cheating, but I just think those certain teams out there are just above the others in several categories. Having the same quarterback year after year helps tremendously as well. It's not to say that other teams can't eventually join them at the top, but I don't see any team yet who looks to be an equal match in terms of consistently being at the top.

_________________________________________________________
How the heck did I get old enough to have a kid in college?

yuccaneers

*
Hall of Famer
******
Posts : 2374
Offline
#27 : December 05, 2007, 08:02:16 PM

Think the Saints number one problem is their defense, they had huge holes on that same side the year before and did nothing to address it.

I also think that the Bucs are on there way up, but would like further proof before I am ready to throw the bank at Gruden to be here another six years if this is the same pattern that shows after this season.

Hoping that the team decides to extend Gruden by a year to take away the lame duck tag, and spend some money on key free agents while ridding themselves of old talent that is no longer productive ie: Kevin Carter / Greg Spires and use that money on a player just entering his prime in Jared Allen.

In Football, RESPECT is never given freely by your opponent. It must be TAKEN from them...VIOLENTLY

Great players cost a lot of money but help win games. High-priced players - a byproduct of poorly run front offices with bad scouting departments - only cost a lot of money.
"Our greatest glory consists not in never falling, but in rising every time we fall."
Oliver Goldsmith

BUCFAN4LIFE

*****
Pro Bowler

Posts : 1832
Offline
#28 : December 05, 2007, 08:03:16 PM

Well, how many fans are willing to live with a two year span at the most being up and in the playoffs then have a few down eyars, all because it takes a veteran qb to run the west coast rather then drafting and grooming the right guy now?
And since when have the Bucs ever done that??? They have never found a franchise QB and the ones they thought they found given us plenty of years of garbage. I rather have the 3 consistent than the 3 to build and whoops another young one craps out. Oakland got alot out of Gannon-- look how many years he starred. Face it -- you take the good ones anyway you can get them for as long as you can. The Favres, Mannings, and Brady's are usually the exception to the rule and not the norm.


yuccaneers

*
Hall of Famer
******
Posts : 2374
Offline
#29 : December 05, 2007, 08:07:44 PM

Not putting blame on Gruden for not having the right guy under center, just would like to have that franchise qb, as I am sure some of the other long term fans are as well.

ronde bear, I do agree to some extent that Simms has tied Grudens hands some, but it is not like Gruden has used his skill set that well either those two are are like oil and water and just dont mix

In Football, RESPECT is never given freely by your opponent. It must be TAKEN from them...VIOLENTLY

Great players cost a lot of money but help win games. High-priced players - a byproduct of poorly run front offices with bad scouting departments - only cost a lot of money.
"Our greatest glory consists not in never falling, but in rising every time we fall."
Oliver Goldsmith
Page: 1 2 3 4 ... 20
Pewter Report  >>  Boards  >>  The Red Board (Moderators: 3rd String Kicker, PRPatrol)  >>  Topic: 5 Division Championships in 10 Years! « previous next »
:

Hide Tools Show Tools