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John Galt?

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« #15 : December 10, 2007, 08:09:33 PM »

 66% of the world rejects the bible's teachings.



That's is inaccurate for 3 reasons.
1. The Islamic 21% don't reject the bible(s), just a few parts.
2. Bible should be plural.  The Catholic bible has books not in the KJV and the Mormons and Jehovah's Witnesses versions are different too.
3. Since there are several dozen different denominations and forms of Christianity and each thinks all the others are wrong; then really about 95% of the world rejects other peoples views of what the bibles teaching are.


John Galt?

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« #16 : December 10, 2007, 08:18:31 PM »

Some of you act like Christian presidents started with Bush. Like it or not Christianity will always play a role in your leaders decision making and thought process.. Always has and forever will. No self proclaimed athiest will ever be president as being president means believing in someone or something greater than man itself.

No it does not.

Being president means winning a plurality of the votes in enough states to get an electoral college majority.  Which is 15%(30% voter turnout X 50.0001%) of FL, Tx, CA, NY, Mi, Oh, and TN and you are in.


cyberdude557

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« #17 : December 10, 2007, 08:42:32 PM »

Some of you act like Christian presidents started with Bush. Like it or not Christianity will always play a role in your leaders decision making and thought process.. Always has and forever will. No self proclaimed athiest will ever be president as being president means believing in someone or something greater than man itself.

Sure, because people are dumb enough to put religion as a priority in their voting decisions. Just like Winston Churchill said, "the best argument against democracy is a five-minute conversation with the average voter." The average voter is a moron. He is not capable of independant and critical thinking.

Remember some time ago I posted on this message board a gallup poll that showed a very stong correlation concerning religion and education. The correlation states that the longer someone is in school, the less likely they are to take the bible seriously in their lives. Education teaches you to think on your own and to question authority. Which is something establishments like the Catholic church is against. You are not supposed to question the word of god! Look how the religious right seems to care very little about scientific discovery. They dont want to research stem cell research of any kind. They dont want to research genetics. They are against the space program. They dont want to even speak the word "evolution" in a high school biology class. You would think for people who are so convinced in their faith that they would welcome science. The goal of science is not to disprove the existence of god, the goal is to discover the truth. If the word of god is the truth, then science would soon only discover that truth.

oregonbucfan

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« #18 : December 10, 2007, 09:01:45 PM »

Im more worried about him raising more taxes then Clinton as governor of Arkanasas then about his religion.


Sgt.Shultz

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« #19 : December 10, 2007, 09:23:57 PM »

When will you old people see the friggin light and realize it doesnt matter who goes into the White House, they wont fulfill about 90% of their promises and they get absolutely no where with foreign policy or issues at home.


Heres an amazing concept:

1. Take troops out of Iraq, save BILLIONS
2. Invest money in Border Security and Homelan Security
3. Get Rid of "Career-Politicians" who do absolutely nothing
4. Start with those with the pure minded
5. Stop being World Police and focus on national issues


When you guys finally realize that none of these candidates are worthy the better. America needs to stop using illegal immigrants for cheap labor....Penalize Oil Companies for price gouging...Stop importing Chinese and sweatshop goods. This will ultimately cost more but in the long run you destroy China's economy which is wonderful and put the money back in America.


oregonbucfan

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« #20 : December 10, 2007, 09:48:24 PM »

When will you old people see the friggin light and realize it doesnt matter who goes into the White House, they wont fulfill about 90% of their promises and they get absolutely no where with foreign policy or issues at home.


Heres an amazing concept:

1. Take troops out of Iraq, save BILLIONS
2. Invest money in Border Security and Homelan Security
3. Get Rid of "Career-Politicians" who do absolutely nothing
4. Start with those with the pure minded
5. Stop being World Police and focus on national issues


When you guys finally realize that none of these candidates are worthy the better. America needs to stop using illegal immigrants for cheap labor....Penalize Oil Companies for price gouging...Stop importing Chinese and sweatshop goods. This will ultimately cost more but in the long run you destroy China's economy which is wonderful and put the money back in America.

Ron Paul sounds like your guy


Sgt.Shultz

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« #21 : December 10, 2007, 09:56:10 PM »

Im not really for any of these guys Oregon, because all in all, American Government sucks. They focus on way too much on foreign policy when it should be on homelan security and the health and homeless. If we were just efficient enough and screened every person requesting citizenship we wouldnt need an Amendment breaching Patriot Act to catch terrorists. Im tired of America giving billions to countries who just laugh in our face after taking the money. Why waste it over there when it is needed desperately here. I love my country but the government is just so ineffective now. We need SMART people in Congress and no political parties. Political parties destroy progression in government in my opinion.


alldaway

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« #22 : December 10, 2007, 10:01:32 PM »

Quote
Yes, it can have different meanings, but in this instance one would need to bend over very, very far backward to change the perspective given it by Huckabee IMVHO

True but that perspective still exists even if we disagree with it.

Quote
66% of the world rejects the bible's teachings

Actually all Muslims accept almost all the teachings of the Bible (Old and New Testament).  Where they disagree with Christianity is that they do not believe Isus Hristos is the final prophet rather the great prophet Muhammed is.  Christianity also believes Isus Hristos is also the savior figure but practioners of Islam and Judaism argue the savior figure has yet to come.  

Judaism clearly accepts the Old Testament (foundation of the Torah) but does not look favorably towards the New Testament.

What many people do not realize is that three Abrahamic religions have closer ties then they realize.  Ironic though that there is such fighting and dispute as which is one leads to the right way.  But they all believe in monotheism and Abraham is at the core of all these  three religions.

One could argue had the Persians not lost at the Battle of Platea against the loosely allied Greek city states that the most dominant religion of the world today would have been Zoroastrianism.  Christianity and Islam may have never existed as a result but that is another discussion for another time.




The White Tiger

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« #23 : December 10, 2007, 10:10:18 PM »

The mere fact that you can attack a person's belief, slant all his public statements to support some wierd abberation you have of Christianity and that you can feel free to attack all things Christian - proves to me that you are completely biased. What's more your bias is supported by a hostile media.

You think we force things down your throat, really? Huckabee's beliefs were commonplace in this country only a few years ago - what do you suppose happened to change folks oppinioin in just a few short years? You got it - someone else's morality was forced on us for 30 plus years. When prayer and ANYTHING Christian was removed from school - there was some outcry - but it was removed nonetheless. Why? Good people stood aside and allowed it to happen.

Things have been going more and more liberal/secular for over 30 years - coincidentally, the rise in abberant behavior has also followed that same trendline. Spurious conclusion though, right?

Holding people responsible for their actions sometimes results in a backlash. When you make things right that are wrong and then ignore their results you are allowing your society to melt.

This thread is an example of what freedom from religion gets you - hatred and bigotry still reigns, it's just focused against a particular group. Wonder what the Jews thought as a hostile thought process started to show dominance in the German culture, and to a some extent throughout the world, in the 1930's? It was fashionable to pin the countries problems on "those Jews..."

I used to think it was improbable that someone could manipulate fear and self-loathing into an effective political tool to wield against a people or belief, especially in America. Unfortunately I am seeing these very feelings grow in intensity, while focused rage is sanctioned, this time against Christians - even though Christians are not gaining in political power, nor is Christian thought ensconced in any public (read government) practice. Every tolerance is granted to every other belief system in this country - except for the one that gave rise to the development of it's own culture. We see our rights ignored while hostile attempts are undertaken to curb and eliminate anything relating to Christianity from the public discourse.

The previous poster was right - there can be no reasoned discussion between men when the hositility and anger is sanctioned. When you accept lies as proof and say that my religion is corrupt denies all the good we have done and all that we do around the world. It makes me believe Jesus words that "...we would be hated for his name". As Huckabee stated - "Real faith makes us humble and mindful, not of the faults of others, but of our own. It makes us less judgmental, as we see others with the same frailties we have. Faith gives us strength in the face of injustice and motivates us to do our best for "the least of us."

Need some proof? OK lets look at what Christianity has done in two specific areas of human development - education and helath care.

Education: Just in this country alone - our earliest eduacation began at CHRISTIAN universites - names like: Harvard, Yale, Penn, Princeton, Columbia, Brown, Dartmouth and Cornell, were all founded by religious organizations. A case could be made that these organizations were not held in check by dogma but rather by reason, simply by how they ended up being considered as secular.
Not surprisingly, Amercia's universities were corrupted by secular humanism - yet no where do I see a "fight" established by the Christians regarding  this "dieing of the light." No it would seem Christianity is more accepting of secularism than the reverse. If you can make a case otherwise - I'd certainly like to debate it....

Healthcare: In AD 369, St Basil of Caesarea founded a 300 bed hospital. This was the first large-scale hospital for the seriously ill and disabled. It cared for victims of the plague. There were ho**CENSORED**es for the poor and aged isolation units, wards for travellers who were sick and a leprosy house. It was the first of many built by the Christian Church. The first hospitals of the "new world" were founded by Chrisitan pioneers - because people's bodies need tending as much as their souls.

When debasing Christianity for some supposed affront - lets remember what Christians have done because of the life devoted to the teachings of Jesus Christ. Your prism is fogged due to the challenge Christ has on you. I could no doubt debate each of you endlessly - but in reality all that need be said is this - your argument isn't so much intellectual as it is personal. If i could answer EVERY question by pointing you to Christ their would still be something holding you back from accepting these teachings - and that thing has NOTHING to do with intellect.

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oregonbucfan

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« #24 : December 10, 2007, 10:19:31 PM »

Im not really for any of these guys Oregon, because all in all, American Government sucks. They focus on way too much on foreign policy when it should be on homelan security and the health and homeless. If we were just efficient enough and screened every person requesting citizenship we wouldnt need an Amendment breaching Patriot Act to catch terrorists. Im tired of America giving billions to countries who just laugh in our face after taking the money. Why waste it over there when it is needed desperately here. I love my country but the government is just so ineffective now. We need SMART people in Congress and no political parties. Political parties destroy progression in government in my opinion.

so spend money on the homless for who most choose to be homeless? Any person over 18 with as many handouts this country has can get a place over there head.  You obviously dont trust the govt like me to do anything smart but you will trust them with healthcare?


oregonbucfan

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« #25 : December 10, 2007, 10:22:01 PM »

Id vote for Huckabee in 3 secs over any cand if his voting record wasnt questionable. I rather have a christian then a raggie hag like Hillary and the god hating enviromental feminsit who follow her.


Sgt.Shultz

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« #26 : December 10, 2007, 10:32:31 PM »

Im not really for any of these guys Oregon, because all in all, American Government sucks. They focus on way too much on foreign policy when it should be on homelan security and the health and homeless. If we were just efficient enough and screened every person requesting citizenship we wouldnt need an Amendment breaching Patriot Act to catch terrorists. Im tired of America giving billions to countries who just laugh in our face after taking the money. Why waste it over there when it is needed desperately here. I love my country but the government is just so ineffective now. We need SMART people in Congress and no political parties. Political parties destroy progression in government in my opinion.

so spend money on the homless for who most choose to be homeless? Any person over 18 with as many handouts this country has can get a place over there head. You obviously dont trust the govt like me to do anything smart but you will trust them with healthcare?

Oregon, its better than giving it to other countries who just laugh at us and take it. I just feel that the government needs a fresh start and remove all political parties to stop this political lobbyists and political bashing. I just feel we need to start all over to prevent these career politicians.


cyberdude557

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« #27 : December 10, 2007, 10:42:23 PM »

Id vote for Huckabee in 3 secs over any cand if his voting record wasnt questionable. I rather have a christian then a raggie hag like Hillary and the god hating enviromental feminsit who follow her.

Huckabee has flip-flopped more than Romney and Guiliani put together. Just a few years ago he said he supported lifting sanctions off Cuba. Now all of a sudden he supports leaving them on because he found out he needs those Cuban-American voters in Florida. His stance on illegal immigration is a mess. He says he supports securing the borders but he thinks everyone here illegally should not only be allowed to stay, but they should be given free college tuition paid by the taxpayers. He supported that while he was governor too. That's almost identical to Hillary Clinton's "Dream Act."

He says what he thinks he needs to say in order to get elected. He seems nothing more than your average fake politician.

The White Tiger

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« #28 : December 10, 2007, 10:53:54 PM »

Actually I'm all for political parties - gridlock is good. What's wrong with American government can be answered by showing me a better government. Not perfection - but it is elegant.

It is also the first form of government that harnesses man's warlike bent...it relies on it.

Secularists should absolutely be for it - as it is the ideas of the fittest that survive. You have to be willing to fight and you don't have to just convince your enemy of the relevance of your idea - you sometimes have to convince your ally.

Only certain ideas achieve law - those ideas that have beaten the odds.

The one lament I have about current governmental procedure is that the truly risky ideas are being abbrogated by the legislative branch - as the unpopularity may cost votes - or it's passage cannot be gained by a majority. Therefore the active Judicial branch has begun to usurp the legislative power of the people. We are attemting to reign that in - but it is by no means secure. We are a country ruled by laws - but those laws should be voted up or down by our representatives in the legislature - or it should not have any legal legs.

I would agree it would be happy to have a fresh start - lets have the other guys give up their side this time :D

Let me know when you figure out who that is going to be...until then work the system you have. Your vote is your power, you want to start finding out what will cause ALL Americans to grab a gun and run to the streets - start talking about changing our system! You want to make a difference? Go out and get involved - go get people and take them to the polls - I have and will agian. It has not escaped notice that we are ALL tired of the status quo - both the President and Congress share the lowest approval ratings since they've been recording approval ratings...

First race in a long while that is WIDE open. This race is like the College football BCS polls - no one will kow who's going to still be there in the end until the final week - and then it will be just as interesting.

Huckabee has some good points - yet I'm not sold on his immigration policy. Mitt - almost seems like the ERepublican version of John Kerry, Rudy - is he a Republican on anything other than crime and Terror? Ron Paul - please don't say that name again - he's just the latest straw man set up to siphon Republican votes from the middle. He's John Anderson and Ross Perot with worse shoes. He's an insider running an outsiders campaign and he'll be exposed and set up his own Independent candidacy as soon as he loses more money and ultimately the nomination. Tancredo - doesn't have the name or the money - he's got a brite future as the VP candidate...

Or, in translation, I haven't made up my mind yet either.

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spartan

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« #29 : December 10, 2007, 11:27:01 PM »

Extremely well and eloquently put Buckeye.

Society goes downhill when it permits bad deeds to go unpunished, accepts immoral behavior as the norm and corrupt and greedy men seek and will do anything for power. When a pastor speaks to other pastors I do not consider it beyond the pale to coach that in terms of sin and accepting Christ into your hearts. In essence what he was saying is that we need to do the right things, for the right reasons and not allow what was deemed unacceptable only a few short years ago to take control of society. When you stop doing the right thing, you pass on the responsibility to others. In a lot of cases it has meant passing the buck to the Government. When Florida got whacked by Hurricanes a few years ago, our neighborhood got out there, chopped up trees and pulled them out of houses. We set up generators and bar b q's and shared our resources. We did silly stuff like make big pots of coffee in the morning and passed them around to those folks who didn't have the means.

When Katrina hit, folks who were used to depending on Government for their very lifestyle turned to Government to return that lifestyle to them. When you know that helping your neighbor is the right thing to do, and you act on it, Government becomes less of a necessity. If you just look after yourself, a lot of folks will only have Government to turn to. That is what he was saying IMO.

I personally am leaning towards Huckerbee because I like a lot of his policies. At least as they are communicated on his website. Tancredo has got the ideas but not the support or the following. I would love to vote for New Gingrich but that is never going to happen. Spartan out!! :)
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