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dbucfan

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: December 12, 2007, 06:09:58 PM

Allen said that the Bucs may restructure some players’ deals to create more salary cap room, but for the first time since 2000, the team doesn’t have to release players simply to become salary cap compliant. If Tampa Bay wishes to release a player, it will be based on performance with any salary cap savings coming as a fringe benefit.

Just how bad was Tampa Bay’s salary cap situation when Allen walked in the door in 2004? Consider that the Buccaneers were already $9 million over the salary cap and had only 46 players under contract at the time. That wasn’t even enough cap room for the Buccaneers to field a 53-man roster let alone a practice squad, and didn’t even include any money that had to be doled out in option bonuses, escalators or spent on Tampa Bay’s 2004 draft class. Those factors pushed the $9 million closer to $19 million.

Part of the reason why the Buccaneers have been so cap strapped over the last few years is because several defensive players performed well and were rewarded with lucrative contract extensions after the Super Bowl. Former general manager Rich McKay gave Booger McFarland a large contract extension that he never lived up to. That contract also didn’t allow enough cap room to re-sign Warren Sapp in 2004.

http://www.pewterreport.com/articles/view/2789

Kinda answers the entire question troll - just read the PR offering you linked

\"A Great Coach has to have a Patient Wife, A Loyal Dog, and a Great Quarterback. . . . but not necessarily in that order\" ~ Coach Bud Grant

sammy8887

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#1 : December 12, 2007, 05:45:19 PM

My problem with it is that they were dishonest imo when discussing it. When a guy like Derrick Brooks is tearing up in the parking lot because of the way it was done I find it hard to believe that anyone would agree with it. Next it could be Brooks being treated just the same.

Are you saying that DB was crying b/c BA was dishonest? I think it was b/c one of his long-standing teammates was no longer...understandable reaction...

However let's go back to your most important point from a FO-standpoint...

I know that you could say, they were right, it's obvious that he dropped this season and the right decision was made.


BornaBuc47

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#2 : December 12, 2007, 05:40:09 PM

I'm surprised you didn't mention Simeon Rice because Rice became the highest-paid defensive player in the league in 2003, a title he held through 2006 until Dwight Freeney's new deal in 2007. It also wasn't just one or two Michael Vick-type deals that clogged the Bucs' cap. It was the cumulative effect of dozens of highly paid Buccaneers that put the Bucs behind the eight ball when it comes to the salary cap. The truth is that the Bucs had to release players or not even be able to resign a player every year from 2001 to 2006 � just to get under the cap.

I know the salary cap increased each year, some years making a big jump, but Tampa Bay's salaries rose at an alarming rate as well, proportional to the cap increases � and sometimes in excess of the cap increase. The league's annual increase has certainly helped Tampa Bay's cap situation, but fiscally smart spending has also played a huge role in getting their cap under control.

The main point of the article was to point out that we haven't had big contracts, by league standards, through the years. Simeon Rice was arguably the best DE in the league when he got that contract. You can't have 12 pro bowl players and at least 6 consistent pro bowlers without paying them. My point is, and has always been, that we didn't overpay for any of our players and we were able to keep the core of the team together under McKay. People on here enjoy giving all the credit to Allen when it's not that simple. If you look at league wide available cap space between 2000 and 2003 there were very few teams that had a ton of cap space like this and next season. Rich McKay did an excellent job dealing with the lower cap figures and putting the best team possible on the field for the Buccaneers during his tenure.

While doing the research on this I came across this tidbit that basically explains my disdain for the current front office...

http://www.pewterreport.com/articles/view/2789

"Allen doesn't have to cut a player like DE Simeon Rice to create cap room. In fact, he said Rice is part of the team's plans this year."

"“Simeon has been here working out,” Allen said, referring to Rice’s shoulder surgery that cost him half the season. “He looks good. He’s always been one of the most phenomenal training athletes you’ll ever meet"

Later, after they cut him, they said they had no idea what condition he was in and that's why they had him come to camp and then cut him.

I know that you could say, they were right, it's obvious that he dropped this season and the right decision was made. My problem with it is that they were dishonest imo when discussing it. When a guy like Derrick Brooks is tearing up in the parking lot because of the way it was done I find it hard to believe that anyone would agree with it. Next it could be Brooks being treated just the same.

From 12 Pro Bowlers to 0-We got hosed alright


yuccaneers

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#3 : December 12, 2007, 03:24:58 PM

The Buccaneers have only had four of the top 25 payed players since 2000 using the formula crediting signing bonuses as one payment as they are received. Those players were Mike Alstott, Warren Sapp, Brad Johnson, and Gaines Adams. The top payed player on this list is Gaines Adams who makes more this year then everyone else in the league besides Dwight Freeney, Marc Bulger, and Leonard Davis according to USA Today's database.

The truth is, the Buccaneers during this period have not had many of the leagues top cap killer contracts. Take for example the 2001 top 25 against the cap which is topped by Marc Brunell at $11.35 Million. Warren Sapp was our highest cap figure at $5.93 Million which was almost equal to Ryan Leaf's dead cap money.

The NFL salary cap was first instituted in 1994 with a $34.6 Million cap figure put in place to promote perity around the league. Because of continued increases in the salary cap leading into 2008 the Buccaneers along with most other teams have been able to create a bounty of loot available next year which will cause many high end free agents to be re-signed by their current team. In order to sign free agents next year teams will be forced to hand out record deals to sway players from changing teams.

Since 2000 the salary cap has increased as follows:

2000-$62.172 Million
2001-$67.4 Million
2002-$71.1 Million
2003-$75.007 Million
2004-$80.582 Million
2005-$85.5 Million
2006-$102 Million
2007-$109 Million

For five years from 2000 to 2004 the cap increased by $18.41 Million. From 2000 to our Super Bowl season in 2002 the salary cap went up $8.928 Million. From 2005 to this season the cap has gone up $23.5 Million. The biggest increases so far coming under the new collective bargaining agreement the cap increased $16.5 Million this season and next season will increase approximately $7 Million to around $116 Million which will be equal to a 36% increase in the first three years since the signing of the new CBA.

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Great players cost a lot of money but help win games. High-priced players - a byproduct of poorly run front offices with bad scouting departments - only cost a lot of money.
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PewterReportSR

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#4 : December 12, 2007, 03:46:07 PM

I'm surprised you didn't mention Simeon Rice because Rice became the highest-paid defensive player in the league in 2003, a title he held through 2006 until Dwight Freeney's new deal in 2007. It also wasn't just one or two Michael Vick-type deals that clogged the Bucs' cap. It was the cumulative effect of dozens of highly paid Buccaneers that put the Bucs behind the eight ball when it comes to the salary cap. The truth is that the Bucs had to release players or not even be able to resign a player every year from 2001 to 2006 – just to get under the cap.

I know the salary cap increased each year, some years making a big jump, but Tampa Bay's salaries rose at an alarming rate as well, proportional to the cap increases – and sometimes in excess of the cap increase. The league's annual increase has certainly helped Tampa Bay's cap situation, but fiscally smart spending has also played a huge role in getting their cap under control.

John Galt?

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#5 : December 12, 2007, 06:53:02 PM

The Buccaneers have only had four of the top 25 payed players since 2000 using the formula crediting signing bonuses as one payment as they are received. Those players were Mike Alstott, Warren Sapp, Brad Johnson, and Gaines Adams. The top payed player on this list is Gaines Adams who makes more this year then everyone else in the league besides Dwight Freeney, Marc Bulger, and Leonard Davis according to USA Today's database.

This first paragraph is a rather confusing apples/oranges comparison that is a bit deceiving.  It discusses the Cash Accounting Value of contracts in an article that is about the Salary Cap.  All discussions should be limited to Salary cap accounting values to be fair and balanced.  In Cap accounting Bonuses (signing and other) are spread over the life of the contract.  The cash method ignores the effects of accelerating salaries that may have an adverse impact in later years.

If you have two players that each have a 5yr/$25million contract structured thus:

Player     Signing Bonus  yr1sal       yr2sal      yr3sal    yr4sal    yr5sal
  A              $5m                 $4m        $4m         $4m       $4m       $4m
  B              $2.5m              $2m        $4m         $4.5m    $5.5m    $6.5m

The cash value in the signing year for player A($9m) is twice B($4.5m) and the Cap value in yr 1 is twice for A as well but in yr 3 the cap hit is the same for both and in years 4 and 5 the cap impact of B is much(20%-40%) higher.

During Mckay's reign in Tampa, he had a lot of back-loaded contracts.  The idea being that we would restructure the deals before the latter years.  The problem is if this strategy is over-used you end up with lots of deals to re-do, which the player might not agree to, or you're forced to cut players before their contracts expire.


jerseybucsfan

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#6 : December 12, 2007, 06:54:41 PM

12 Pro Bowlers and six consistent Pro Bowlers?
When did we have 12? You're exaggerating. You don't give Gramatica a deal like we gave him. Give Rice $ but not THAT much. McFarland never really earned his $.
BornaBuc, you fail to understand a fundamental element in cap management. It's not just about the STARS; when you overpay average players, that's when you get in trouble. McKay did a nice job, but at a PRICE and that was after he flew the coop. He was a coward to leave midseason and coward when he knew the cap situation. Leaving your old team in the lurch is only ''excellent'' if you're a Falcon.
As for the Rice situation, boo hoo. Awww, your feelings are hurt. Who cares what you think? You're only microanalyzing what he says in the first place so as to bring it up later as a BASH of the guy. Why? Because most fans don't care what the GM says. Show me wins! You wanna chat with Bruce go open a Starbuck's. He's not gonna bash the guy. If you can trade him, that would destroy any value. THAT is how you lose your team. As it turned out, he couldn't even deal him and as it turned out, he couldn't have made a better move.
And as for Brooks, pre-emptive ripping? Why don't you wait and see what happens before you make crazy speculation. DB is NOT Rice; Rice was selfish, all about the $, the total antithesis of 55. And beyond the off-the-field stuff, 55 has had a good year.

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BornaBuc47

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#7 : December 12, 2007, 07:04:29 PM

This is the USA Today datebase that I used in the article...

http://asp.usatoday.com/sports/football/nfl/salaries/default.aspx

John Galt?, I realize it was a little confusing but my point was that we didn't just hand out huge contracts, and we still don't. If you use the database you will see that most of the players in the top25 each year either just signed their deals or are at the end of the deals that were back loaded. Reworking deals is just a part of the game. I'm sure the players prefer it this way because they get their bonuses up front. The salary cap version of this list would show a lot of the same thing. Rarely has a Buccaneers player had a mega salary cap killing contract by league standards.

From 12 Pro Bowlers to 0-We got hosed alright


John Galt?

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#8 : December 12, 2007, 07:21:09 PM

This is the USA Today datebase that I used in the article...

http://asp.usatoday.com/sports/football/nfl/salaries/default.aspx

John Galt?, I realize it was a little confusing but my point was that we didn't just hand out huge contracts, and we still don't. If you use the database you will see that most of the players in the top25 each year either just signed their deals or are at the end of the deals that were back loaded. Reworking deals is just a part of the game. I'm sure the players prefer it this way because they get their bonuses up front. The salary cap version of this list would show a lot of the same thing. Rarely has a Buccaneers player had a mega salary cap killing contract by league standards.

First, I wasn't responding to your point, but commenting on the flawed logic of the original article.

Second, the problem wasn't mega-deals, it was lots of deals on backups, ST players, etc. that added up to problems.  A couple mega-deals can be restructured (with the players cooperation.) but when you have 20-25 deals, all accelerating at the same time, it is too much for anyone to handle and you're forced to pull out the axe.


BornaBuc47

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#9 : December 12, 2007, 07:23:19 PM

12 Pro Bowlers and six consistent Pro Bowlers?
When did we have 12?

"Between the draft and free agency, McKay constructed a roster that featured 12 Pro Bowl performers in 2002. In addition, Tampa Bay's 41 Pro Bowl selections between 1997 through 2002 were the most in the NFL. To put it into perspective, the Buccaneers had only 19 Pro Bowl selections in the first 21 years of their history leading up to 1997."

http://www.atlantafalcons.com/People/Staff/Executive/Rich_McKay.aspx

Some of the contracts that were given out, like the Gramatica deal, in hindsight seem high, but at the time Gramatica was one of the best kickers in the league and the "Automatica" label was dead on during that time. In order to sign a guy like Rice in his prime you have to pay him. His contract was earned up until last year when he got injured, and even last year and this year's Rice contract didn't make the top 25. This year it didn't effect our cap one bit. I'm sure you agree that the last couple of years of Rice's contract were meant to get extended or restructured by McKay when the contract was written. Again, you might think these contracts are large, but by NFL standards they are not. Gaines Adams has the highest one year bonus+salary that we've had since 2000 and without looking I'd say ever.

From 12 Pro Bowlers to 0-We got hosed alright


jerseybucsfan

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#10 : December 12, 2007, 07:37:24 PM

But not all at ONCE. That's like saying a baseball team should win 110 games when it has five guys on its staff that ONCE won 20 games in a season.

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BornaBuc47

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#11 : December 12, 2007, 08:43:50 PM

But not all at ONCE. That's like saying a baseball team should win 110 games when it has five guys on its staff that ONCE won 20 games in a season.

Which one of these players was a has been at the time in your opinion..Derrick Brooks, Rhone Barber, Brian Kelly, Mike Alstott, John Lynch, Warren Sapp, Simeon Rice?

By the way, I didn't say at once. Actually if you read the article in the link that I posted you'll see it was actually 56 players(i'm assuming it's not 56 individual players, but times) have gone to the pro bowl while he was GM in Tampa and Atlanta.

From 12 Pro Bowlers to 0-We got hosed alright


ryan24

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#12 : December 12, 2007, 09:37:56 PM

12 Pro Bowlers and six consistent Pro Bowlers?
When did we have 12?

"Between the draft and free agency, McKay constructed a roster that featured 12 Pro Bowl performers in 2002. In addition, Tampa Bay's 41 Pro Bowl selections between 1997 through 2002 were the most in the NFL. To put it into perspective, the Buccaneers had only 19 Pro Bowl selections in the first 21 years of their history leading up to 1997."

http://www.atlantafalcons.com/People/Staff/Executive/Rich_McKay.aspx

Some of the contracts that were given out, like the Gramatica deal, in hindsight seem high, but at the time Gramatica was one of the best kickers in the league and the "Automatica" label was dead on during that time. In order to sign a guy like Rice in his prime you have to pay him. His contract was earned up until last year when he got injured, and even last year and this year's Rice contract didn't make the top 25. This year it didn't effect our cap one bit. I'm sure you agree that the last couple of years of Rice's contract were meant to get extended or restructured by McKay when the contract was written. Again, you might think these contracts are large, but by NFL standards they are not. Gaines Adams has the highest one year bonus+salary that we've had since 2000 and without looking I'd say ever.

I don't really fault McKay for most of those contracts. I thought the Grammatica deal was a bad one from day one. The bottom line though, is that what McKay's contracts did was keep the window short for the Bucs to win the Super Bowl. It was likely the reason that Parcells and Tannenbaum didn't join the Bucs and didn't help Allen and Gruden as they tried to "keep things going" so to speak.

Happy and Peppy and Bursting with love.

BornaBuc47

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#13 : December 12, 2007, 09:47:54 PM

Gruden/Allen in Oakland were over $50 Million over the salary cap at one point in Oakland after Gruden left. You don't think that's because they had several high profile players?

From 12 Pro Bowlers to 0-We got hosed alright




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#14 : December 12, 2007, 10:31:24 PM


The main point of the article was to point out that we haven't had big contracts, by league standards, through the years.

Booger McFaarland signed in 2003, became highest paid DT in football

Simeon Rice signed in 2003- became highest paid defensive player in football

Martin Gramatica was given a 7 mil bonus in the ealry part of this decade

Keyshawn and Brads Johnson were given extensions after 2002 (how long were they effective after that)

Brooks was making al ot of money ever since he held out in 2002 or whenever it was.


You are clueless borna


btw, good post John Galt you pretty much nailed this one. Borna has no clue. He is in denial. No, no we werent giving out backloaded salaries that crushed the salary cap for years. The real reasong was a 3 mil signing bonus to Garner and a 6 mil bonus to Steussie. Those deals weere devastating in comparison to giving Gramatica (a frekain kicker!) a 7 mil bonus.
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