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1sparkybuc

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#30 : December 13, 2007, 03:27:41 PM

You haters will always find something to complain about. The team is about to win it's third division championship in six years. It is out of cap hell (unlike Atlanta) and the team has a talent base and depth never before seen in this franchise's history. We have money for free agency and all of our first day draft picks plus a state of the art facility. You cherry pick your "facts" and try to spoil the fun for the rest of us.
I can't at all agree with that.
Of course you can't. Thirteen players on IR and the team is on the verge of it's third division championship and a likely double digit win season. Why should it be obvious to you?
I'm proud of this current bunch, but there's no way they had nearly the talent nor depth of the Super Bowl team.

There was no depth on the 2002 squad. They were just fortunate enough to not lose any starters for any great length of time. As for the talent level of those starters, most of it was on the Defense and they peaked that year. This team has talent in the dawn and the twilight of their careers as well as some in between. This team has a future. The worst to first era is over. The Bucs will start a streak of division championships with this squad. The 2002 and 2005 teams were not able to do that. We have a new foundation to build on and draft picks and cap space to work with.

BornaBuc47

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#31 : December 13, 2007, 05:47:20 PM

This is the USA Today datebase that I used in the article...

http://asp.usatoday.com/sports/football/nfl/salaries/default.aspx


I'm confused, is this your article, or Yuccs?  Or did someone forget which board account they wanted to have this discussion under? :p

Bucs47 is my original message board name. I am writing for PewterKrew under that name.

From 12 Pro Bowlers to 0-We got hosed alright


dbucfan

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#32 : December 13, 2007, 05:48:31 PM

This is the USA Today datebase that I used in the article...

http://asp.usatoday.com/sports/football/nfl/salaries/default.aspx

John Galt?, I realize it was a little confusing but my point was that we didn't just hand out huge contracts, and we still don't. If you use the database you will see that most of the players in the top25 each year either just signed their deals or are at the end of the deals that were back loaded. Reworking deals is just a part of the game. I'm sure the players prefer it this way because they get their bonuses up front. The salary cap version of this list would show a lot of the same thing. Rarely has a Buccaneers player had a mega salary cap killing contract by league standards.

First, I wasn't responding to your point, but commenting on the flawed logic of the original article.

Second, the problem wasn't mega-deals, it was lots of deals on backups, ST players, etc. that added up to problems. A couple mega-deals can be restructured (with the players cooperation.) but when you have 20-25 deals, all accelerating at the same time, it is too much for anyone to handle and you're forced to pull out the axe.

One of the errors of this FO has been (IMO) the fact that even though the salary cap situation called for "pulling out the axe" and starting fresh, the FO has taken the approach of making as few cuts as possible along with very limited signings. This stretched out the salary cap situation for a longer period than needed and depleted the talent pool of the team as all the signed players grew old together without an infusion of fresh blood (outside of the limted draft picks).

If what your getting at is that they should have "blown it up" at some point I'd agree. The pain would now likely be over with but I really wonder how this area would have swallowed that one.

Brads and Ryan - I don't think anyone would disagree now - but that is retrospective.  A lot of stuff had to go wrong and did to preclude the buccs from having better years right after the SB.  Just sayin' it is a lot easier to make that call now - didn't look so good then....

\"A Great Coach has to have a Patient Wife, A Loyal Dog, and a Great Quarterback. . . . but not necessarily in that order\" ~ Coach Bud Grant

BornaBuc47

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#33 : December 13, 2007, 06:04:58 PM


The main point of the article was to point out that we haven't had big contracts, by league standards, through the years.

Booger McFaarland signed in 2003, became highest paid DT in football

Simeon Rice signed in 2003- became highest paid defensive player in football

Martin Gramatica was given a 7 mil bonus in the ealry part of this decade

Keyshawn and Brads Johnson were given extensions after 2002 (how long were they effective after that)

Brooks was making al ot of money ever since he held out in 2002 or whenever it was.


You are clueless borna


btw, good post John Galt you pretty much nailed this one. Borna has no clue. He is in denial. No, no we werent giving out backloaded salaries that crushed the salary cap for years. The real reasong was a 3 mil signing bonus to Garner and a 6 mil bonus to Steussie. Those deals weere devastating in comparison to giving Gramatica (a frekain kicker!) a 7 mil bonus.

You mention those contracts but none of those players show up on the top25 list. I didn't make the search tool, just referenced it. If you disagree so badly maybe you should send USA Today an email to get them straight on your opinion. The truth hurts, the contracts were written to be cap friendly, we didn't give out huge signing bonuses, by league standards, and the highest paid player in Buccaneers history using the USA Today formula is Gaines Adams. Ouch

From 12 Pro Bowlers to 0-We got hosed alright


Fire_Schiano

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#34 : December 13, 2007, 07:03:02 PM


The main point of the article was to point out that we haven't had big contracts, by league standards, through the years.

Booger McFaarland signed in 2003, became highest paid DT in football

Simeon Rice signed in 2003- became highest paid defensive player in football

Martin Gramatica was given a 7 mil bonus in the ealry part of this decade

Keyshawn and Brads Johnson were given extensions after 2002 (how long were they effective after that)

Brooks was making al ot of money ever since he held out in 2002 or whenever it was.


You are clueless borna


btw, good post John Galt you pretty much nailed this one. Borna has no clue. He is in denial. No, no we werent giving out backloaded salaries that crushed the salary cap for years. The real reasong was a 3 mil signing bonus to Garner and a 6 mil bonus to Steussie. Those deals weere devastating in comparison to giving Gramatica (a frekain kicker!) a 7 mil bonus.

You mention those contracts but none of those players show up on the top25 list. I didn't make the search tool, just referenced it. If you disagree so badly maybe you should send USA Today an email to get them straight on your opinion. The truth hurts, the contracts were written to be cap friendly, we didn't give out huge signing bonuses, by league standards, and the highest paid player in Buccaneers history using the USA Today formula is Gaines Adams. Ouch

Gaines is a slotted salary.  There is nothing you can do about that if you draft in the top 5.  Its a flawed system but it is what it is.  You keep acting like McKay never paid anyone big money but yet we were up against the cap for years.  Remember the tagging and then signing of chiti ahonatu that cost us the use of a franchise tag for 5 years?  The rather large deal signed by Marcus Jones that he even admits he was "stealing money"?  Enough with the McKay is a saint crap.  He buried us in the early part of the decade and we are finally coming out of it.  No we didnt have the Bledsoe/Favre deals but extensions to Booger, Gramatica, BJ, Keyshaun, Chiti, Jones, proved to be very debilitating towards the back end of those deals.   Not to mention that McKay happens to be the worst WR talent evaluator in NFL history which helped stunt the offense for years. 

BornaBuc47

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#35 : December 13, 2007, 07:49:03 PM


The main point of the article was to point out that we haven't had big contracts, by league standards, through the years.

Booger McFaarland signed in 2003, became highest paid DT in football

Simeon Rice signed in 2003- became highest paid defensive player in football

Martin Gramatica was given a 7 mil bonus in the ealry part of this decade

Keyshawn and Brads Johnson were given extensions after 2002 (how long were they effective after that)

Brooks was making al ot of money ever since he held out in 2002 or whenever it was.


You are clueless borna


btw, good post John Galt you pretty much nailed this one. Borna has no clue. He is in denial. No, no we werent giving out backloaded salaries that crushed the salary cap for years. The real reasong was a 3 mil signing bonus to Garner and a 6 mil bonus to Steussie. Those deals weere devastating in comparison to giving Gramatica (a frekain kicker!) a 7 mil bonus.

You mention those contracts but none of those players show up on the top25 list. I didn't make the search tool, just referenced it. If you disagree so badly maybe you should send USA Today an email to get them straight on your opinion. The truth hurts, the contracts were written to be cap friendly, we didn't give out huge signing bonuses, by league standards, and the highest paid player in Buccaneers history using the USA Today formula is Gaines Adams. Ouch

   Not to mention that McKay happens to be the worst WR talent evaluator in NFL history which helped stunt the offense for years. 

You're kidding right? Do you really want to get into a discussion comparing the production of McKay drafted receivers compared to Gruden's choices? At least McKay's produce, even if they don't produce to Randy Moss standards. Gruden's can't even beat out Ike Hilliard to get on the field and now are relegated to playing special teams.

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Gaines is a slotted salary.  There is nothing you can do about that if you draft in the top 5.  Its a flawed system but it is what it is.

More excuses, look at the list. Gaines is the highest rookie in the top 25 on the list!

From 12 Pro Bowlers to 0-We got hosed alright


olafberserker

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#36 : December 13, 2007, 07:59:42 PM

psst psst. 
nudge nudge

Jacquez Green/Reidel Anthony. 

cough cough

 :D

bradentonian

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#37 : December 13, 2007, 08:03:59 PM

Honestly, I was beginning to believe in McKay's WR curse, but his picks in Atlanta have been performing remarkable better without Vick around to hamper them.


olafberserker

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#38 : December 13, 2007, 08:09:03 PM

Honestly, I was beginning to believe in McKay's WR curse, but his picks in Atlanta have been performing remarkable better without Vick around to hamper them.

White's come around, but then again when you're constantly playing from behind your numbers will tend to go up.

BornaBuc47

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#39 : December 13, 2007, 08:09:11 PM

Those two receivers helped us earn playoff victories. Gruden's choices haven't. You do know that Roddy White has more receiving yards than Joey Galloway this season, right? Look at the stats. You might not like them but they crush Gruden's choices who are basically bit part players and special teamers.



From 12 Pro Bowlers to 0-We got hosed alright


Boid Fink

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#40 : December 13, 2007, 08:14:24 PM

Those two receivers helped us earn playoff victories. Gruden's choices haven't. You do know that Roddy White has more receiving yards than Joey Galloway this season, right? Look at the stats. You might not like them but they crush Gruden's choices who are basically bit part players and special teamers.



So what point are you making again?  Do you ever have a differing one?

Oh yeah...it is another Gruden stinks post...wow.  You are original. 

You are sooooo good for this place with all your original thinking, and perfect truths.  What an absolute pleasure it would be for a new member to read this stuff...then they would know how much you despise Gruden, despite the fact the BUcs are going to win three division under his reign, and he gave you a Lombardi to brag on.  Despite the fact Dungy could not do it.


John Galt?

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#41 : December 13, 2007, 08:36:24 PM


The main point of the article was to point out that we haven't had big contracts, by league standards, through the years.

Booger McFaarland signed in 2003, became highest paid DT in football

Simeon Rice signed in 2003- became highest paid defensive player in football

Martin Gramatica was given a 7 mil bonus in the ealry part of this decade

Keyshawn and Brads Johnson were given extensions after 2002 (how long were they effective after that)

Brooks was making al ot of money ever since he held out in 2002 or whenever it was.


You are clueless borna


btw, good post John Galt you pretty much nailed this one. Borna has no clue. He is in denial. No, no we werent giving out backloaded salaries that crushed the salary cap for years. The real reasong was a 3 mil signing bonus to Garner and a 6 mil bonus to Steussie. Those deals weere devastating in comparison to giving Gramatica (a frekain kicker!) a 7 mil bonus.

You mention those contracts but none of those players show up on the top25 list. I didn't make the search tool, just referenced it. If you disagree so badly maybe you should send USA Today an email to get them straight on your opinion. The truth hurts, the contracts were written to be cap friendly, we didn't give out huge signing bonuses, by league standards, and the highest paid player in Buccaneers history using the USA Today formula is Gaines Adams. Ouch

 Not to mention that McKay happens to be the worst WR talent evaluator in NFL history which helped stunt the offense for years.

You're kidding right? Do you really want to get into a discussion comparing the production of McKay drafted receivers compared to Gruden's choices? At least McKay's produce, even if they don't produce to Randy Moss standards. Gruden's can't even beat out Ike Hilliard to get on the field and now are relegated to playing special teams.

Quote
Gaines is a slotted salary. There is nothing you can do about that if you draft in the top 5. Its a flawed system but it is what it is.

More excuses, look at the list. Gaines is the highest rookie in the top 25 on the list!

How come every time someone counters with a good logical point, you call it an ''excuse''?  That's almost as bad as an ad hominem response, and is basically an admission that the other poster is right and you can't dispute it.

The prime reason Gaines is the highest rookie in the top 25 on the list, is that it is an inaccurate and crappy list.

For instance: (all info linked for your verification)

JaMarcus Russell according to the list got NO SIGNING BONUS!

Neither did Brady Quinn

And they have  Joe Thomas with a base salary of only $285k but Signing and other bonuses of $14.96mill which somehow adds up to $8mill????

Year  Team       Base Salary Sign Bonus Other Bonus Total Salary Cap Value Position
2007 Browns  $ 285,000  $ 6,360,000  $ 8,605,000  $ 8,000,000  $ 2,700,000  OL

Same with Adrian Peterson

Year Team Base Salary Sign Bonus Other Bonus Total Salary Cap Value Position
2007 Vikings  $ 285,000  $ 3,000,000  $ 3,955,000  $ 4,540,000  $ 2,040,000  RB
 
Actually, they list every rookie as having a $285,000 salary and every one doesn't add up.


Your article and every single post you have made is based on a faulty data base with bad data!

The master of fake facts actually found a source even less reliable than he is!
In the future, stick with Forbes




olafberserker

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#42 : December 13, 2007, 08:41:55 PM

Those two receivers helped us earn playoff victories. Gruden's choices haven't. You do know that Roddy White has more receiving yards than Joey Galloway this season, right? Look at the stats. You might not like them but they crush Gruden's choices who are basically bit part players and special teamers.





Like I said.  He's played well, but it's a lot easier to throw up numbers when palyign catch up all the time. Of course the most improtant stat is 8 wins and soon another division crown. ;)

And those two receivers sucked period.  They didn't help crap.



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#43 : December 13, 2007, 09:17:20 PM



One of the errors of this FO has been (IMO) the fact that even though the salary cap situation called for "pulling out the axe" and starting fresh, the FO has taken the approach of making as few cuts as possible along with very limited signings. This stretched out the salary cap situation for a longer period than needed and depleted the talent pool of the team as all the signed players grew old together without an infusion of fresh blood (outside of the limted draft picks).


wow good objective argument, I could agree with that. But I also see where the FO was coming from. They werent forced to completely blow the team up like teams like JAcksonville, Tennessee and Baltimore were forced to do just to field a roster. I think it left some sense of hope from 2004-2006 that we could hold on to some core players, while reloading with cheap low-risk contracts at the same time repairing the salary cap for the future. Looking back on things, maybe it wouldve been best to just blow it up in 2004, but do you really think this town wouldve allowed it? They nearly crucified him for cutting loose only a handful of players, what if he wouldve got rid of the whole team?


Good point though, its a breath of fresh air to see someone bring up reasonable criticisms of Gruden

doobiedoright

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#44 : December 14, 2007, 11:26:58 AM

Cause he is a dungy and mckay fan!  Not a buc fan!

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