Something to ponder.... IE, gruden...

[boredomkills01]

If Gruden gets the team to .500 with little added talent, and a few key signings, then he keeps his job. 

If he blows the cap, and the Bucs win 9-10 games, he keeps his job.

Gruden stays.

Unless he drafts, blows the cap, and the Bucs are still a sub .500 squad.  Then and only then, will he lose his job.  You freaking haters are killing me.

Open your minds and your eyes.  They are not working with a diamond farm here...they are working with glass.

As i said...

If we fail to make the playoffs next year, he will be treading on thin ice IMO, But he will definitely keep his job...

The following year will be the Deciding factor in that case....

[boredomkills01]

First of All gruden has a Contract till 2008....

i have a ? for all the gruden bashers.... If gruden has two winning seasons here, back to back, Playoffs but no Superbowl.... will you still want him gone??

most people who bash gruden say that he "only won with Dungy's team"... and are still upset about the dungy firing...

so If your answer is YES I still want Gruden out, IMO you are Kinda contradicting yourself, Because to me that has a strong similarity to the Dungy Firing....?

(I am keeping my feelings on the topic To myself so as to keep the thread "user friendly" No childish banter in this thread please!)

[DanTurksGhost]

No childish banter in this thread please!

Good luck with that.

[umguy1999]

My point is not Gruden won with Dungys team its Gruden won with a real GM. Now that Gruden calls all the shots and Allen just crunches the numbers we have had some bad football teams, worse than even the Dilfer years. Gruden ONLY Had success with a real GM. or an highly inolved owner such as AL Davis.
I would be all for keeping Gruden if he had a real GM, I think Gruden is a horrible personell guy and his record proves that. He is a good motivator for young players who buy into it, but Vets see through it after a while.

[mjs020294]

My point is not Gruden won with Dungys team its Gruden won with a real GM. Now that Gruden calls all the shots and Allen just crunches the numbers we have had some bad football teams, worse than even the Dilfer years. Gruden ONLY Had success with a real GM. or an highly inolved owner such as AL Davis.
I would be all for keeping Gruden if he had a real GM, I think Gruden is a horrible personell guy and his record proves that. He is a good motivator for young players who buy into it, but Vets see through it after a while.

You mean a real GM that spends 75% of the cap on D players and signs them all to contracts escalating in the same year.  The sort of GM that trades away multiple high draft picks, in deals that go pear shape.  The sort of GM that over rules the coach on draft day and takes a player like Marquis Cooper instead of Brian Westbrook....…mind you if we had taken Domanik Davis instead of Simms Gruden wouldn’t have needed Westbrook.    [banghead]

Rich did a good job in his time in Tampa, but he left a trail of destruction in his wake.

[DeadmenTNT]

I would be all for keeping Gruden if he had a real GM, I think Gruden is a horrible personell guy and his record proves that. He is a good motivator for young players who buy into it, but Vets see through it after a while.

I am not quite sure how the two deficiencies you point out are connected. Deficiency 1 - Gruden is a bad personnel guy. Deficiency 2 - Gruden can't motivate vets. Yet your conclusion is that you would keep Gruden. Seems to me that a coach with deficiency #2 will never be consistently successful. You can't keep turning over your roster every two years. So why would you keep him?

[umguy1999]

I am talking about a GM who brought us a Super Bowl,  I am saying there is evidance that Gruden does better when he is not the one calling all the shots, than when he is.

I think a Gruden/McCay were great. Gruden/Davis were great. Gruden/Allen is no differant than Gruden on his own.

[naplesbuc]

Gruden/McKay was a nightmare.  The last thing you want is a GM/HC relationship that is terrible.  They coexisted for one season and McKay was extremely reluctant to bring in the players Gruden wanted which were instrumental in bringing the Lombardi to Tampa.

[acacius]

The 2004 offseason sucked, to be certain.  But I really feel like Allen has done an excellent job outside of that year's poor free agency pickups.  Maybe he's only done better due to cap constraints or maybe he learned a lesson that offseason.  I dunno.  But overall, I'm quite happy having him as a GM right now, quite regardless of Gruden, McKay or anyone else.

[BucsGuru]

Great post.  I have said that if Gruden keeps us competitive THIS season, he earns the right to come back next season.  But, if we go out and play poorly the rest of this year, regardless of strength of schedule, injuries, etc, then I think we should consider making a change before next season. 
To answer your question though, I think we need to go deep in the playoffs and make a serious run in the next two years in order for Jon to retain his job.  We held Dungy to that standard, we need to hold Gruden to it as well.  He will have cap heaven this off season to make player trades, a great draft, and many returning youth that look promising.  Honestly, how many chances does anyone get to produce a winning team?  How many excuses are we going to keep making?  I cannot understand the logic behind that at all.  You just don't go out and spend the money we did on a coach like Jon Gruden and put up with losing seasons forever do you? 

[BuckEmUp]

You can NOT fire a coach because he does not win a SB every 4 years.  You can fire a coach because his team is underachieving and is going up and down every year with great players.  Dungy was handed the pink slip because he couldn't win when it counted with a great team.  If Gruden had been here 3 years earlier we would have been being talked about as a dynasty not the Pats.

McKay is the worst in the league.  He destroyed our cap and is now doing the same to the Falgoons.  Umguy, you can not be serious that Allen and Gruden are not a good combination.  They have made great personell moves with very little cap space.  That cap space caused them to have to pick up the scraps after every other team ate the Turkey.  McKay got good talent in here but thats not because he saw it, rather it is because he had good scouts.

Gruden did what Dungy could not.  I wont be surprised to see another coach brought into Indy soon, Dungy just can not get the job done.

[DBuc]

I live in Atlanta and believe me...people are starting to question McKay's decision making already.  They have one of the highest payrolls in the league, he picked Mora over Weiss and Lovie Smith...only one or two  draft choices had panned out (D.Hall and D.Williams...though it is still early) so far...Their best players are still leftovers from the Reeves era (Brooking, Dunn, Vick, Crumpler, Kearny), he has signed numerous free agent busts...his decision to not draft a defensive end in a defensive end rich draft and instead trade their pick for an expensive, injury-prone malcontent in Abraham is being questioned as well as trading their 3rd pick in the draft to move up to take Jimmy Williams when they could have stayed put and picked a better player in Richard Marshall(which I questioned right when it happened)...oh year, wasting two first round picks on mediocre wide receivers and trading for another 1st rounder(malcontent who will probably leave next year)...and not drafting a single compentent offensive lineman (they started the season with all 5 starters from the Reeves era)...

Let's see...McKay has maxed their payroll(and mortgaged their future), has a locker room full of disconted players and staff, inherited a Pro Bowl caliber quarterback, drafted poorly with a full slate of picks year in and out, and right now his team has only two more wins than us...and has only one playoff showing(I do not think  they are making it this year either)...Since he left we have had to clean up his mess but now we have a slate of young promising players, lots of picks in the upcoming drafting and $25+ in salary cap space...Oh yeah, we also have had playoff showing as well since he left...but remember, we are rebuilding...The Falcons are supposed to be winning now...

[finnbluebucs]

If Gruden coaches the Bucs to back to back winning seasons in 2007 and 2008, theres no way I would want him to leave/be fired.

[umguy1999]

Grudens has too much ego, in Oakland Al Davis was a lot more type-A than Gruden so Gruden had to bow down (kind of how he did when Keyshawn punked him on the sidelines). Gruden/Allen have done nothing,, taking the fact that a coachs job should not depend on winning the SB every 4 years, but it should be questioned when we either win a SB or go under 500 more often than not. It should be questioned when we are ranked 31 in offense with an offensive coach. It should be questioned why a coach does things like go into a season with 3 young QB's and a banged up Vet who was never that good to begin with, it should be questioned why we decided to throw 50 passes in a game with 50 MPH winds. It should be questioned why players seem to lay down after one year, like Clayton and Caddy Heck even Simms came in as a differant player than the end of last season. Why a player like Keenan has never had an issue with a coach had one with Gruden..Gruden should just go into politics he has the mind set for it.
Gruden should be on the bubble now, I would fire him with anything less than 8-8... If he loves Tampa then I would bump him down to OC and ask him to take it or leave it, and tell him good luck in Dallas and take that sorry ass 6th round QB with you....

[Boid Fink]

Gruden rocks.  He is a good coach, struggling with a cap -25 mill team.  He is working with youngsters, and is squeezing them for all he can.  He has had the failures of many of his players to blame for his woes, and the injuries of many to steer him from equality.  He is a nice coach.

Gruden haters, there is absolutely no replacement.  I have more faith in Gruden as the best component of this team, than I do any of the individual players, sans Galloway...who is a damn nice wideout.