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yuccaneers

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: November 26, 2006, 01:00:10 AM

Does anybody factor in that Simms was horrible looking in his three starts this year, Gradkowski is a rookie learning on the fly, no running game to speak of to keep defenses honest, and a bad o-line to boot, not to mention that the offensive is only on the field for about 45 plays a game compared to the 60-65 plays that other offenses are running means less chance for more plays. What about the open throws that Gradkowski has missed fired when Clayton was wideopen there where what know about 5, so i guess that was Clayton fault as well that Gradkowski has missed reads and throws.

When you compare the numbers of Joey Galloway to Michael Clayton as far as how many times Galloway was the intended target and dropped balls and % caught it is very intersting

Joey Galloway
Year    Team   Games    Catches      Yards    Aveage   TD   
2006    TB       11        41            697      17.0         5

Targets    Drops    Percent Caught    Percent First Down
95                   5             43.2                      32.6

Michael Clayton
Year     Team   Games    Catches    Yards  Average  TD
2006      TB         11    29          299    10.3      1

Targets    Drops    Percent Caught    Percent First Down
60                  3             48.3                     30.0

Galloway has had the ball thrown his way 35 more times then Clayton has but has only managed to catch the ball 43.2% of the time compared to Clayton who has had 35 less chances but has a highter catch % by 5.1% and less drops then Galloway. So if we reverse the number of thrown balls and do the % math on each guys numbers then it would be everyone saying that Galloway has lost it not Clayton. Or could it be that Gradkowski is not clearly progressing through his reads

Clayton would have roughly 46 catches 473 yards with his same 10.3 yard average
Galloway would have roughly 25 catches 425 yards with his same 17.0 yard average
not bad for a second receiver with a struggling rookie quarterback and 22 less offensive plays in a game. compared to Galloways. with Galloway yard average being higher because we all know that Galloway is the speedster on the team.

So for anybody who wants to say this person is a bust or that person is a bust there are alot of things that come into play not just the receiver running routes, what about the quarterback who is throwing the ball not to mention that Gradkowski has ran the ball 33 times this year meaning he has taken of out of the pocket instead of buying time and throwing the ball. So in all fairness lets not pass judgement on Clayton just yet. What Receivers numbers havent went down with a true rookie quarterback starting. I can think of quite a few receivers that had their number go down drasticly with rookie quarterbacks starting for there team.

Also throw in the fact that Gradkowski is quick to throw to his check downs rather then wait that extra second or 2 to get the ball down field.




Boid Fink

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#1 : November 26, 2006, 01:14:33 AM

2 years worth of bust is a lot of explaining and excuse making, IMO.

There just comes a time when a first round wideout should be able to perform better than 30 yards per game, better than 1 TD in two years, better than 2.9 YAC.

Clayton is a HUGE bust as of now.  He was having a better season last year, and that was when he had a dinged shoulder and turf toe.  And he is "rededicated" to the game (Contract with coach), and healthy, and he is worse.

His number speak for themselves, and try to bring up the last time #80 had a nice game, aside from the Cincy one this year.  Thanks for the TD...

While you make valid points, there is a lot of time transpiring here.  And Clayton is regressing, despite the situation.  A good wideout will make himself available to the QB, espescially since Clayton is widely considered a posession WR, a guy who works well within the chains.  But he can't get it done.  He gets smothered by LBers trying to run slants, gets outrun trying to go intermediate, and NEVER goes deep...

Two years, 1 TD.  Remember that.  Also remember that Galloway is also working through all this, and is not a real #1.  He is more of a complement than anything...and don't bring up Keyshawn comps.  Doesn't apply. 



yuccaneers

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#2 : November 26, 2006, 01:21:08 AM

Boid
Also i think that the spreadic change of quarterbacks from year to year plus the fact that Clayton was aked to put weight on by Gruden and being injuryed last year have a big part to do with his short comings this year. I will still wait to see how he finishes the season. The telling point will be in the off-season if the team signs a decent number two or drafts a receiver high in the draft means that the coaching staff and front office have lost confidence in him. But with Gruden not willing to bench him for Hilliard or Stovall not seeing the field tends me to belive that there are a number of things going on behind closed doors that we just dont know yet.


alldaway

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#3 : November 26, 2006, 09:59:35 AM

Yuccaneers

Thank you for presenting a reasonable opinion with the numbers and situations to back it up.  In my opinion Clayton is a bust in some people's minds not becuase he is not producing nor the drops (there are plenty of other Bucs players guiltier with drops) but becuase he is not dominating (and even that is hard to tell given the situation this year).

Maybe Gruden just wanted a solid possesion WR that could block?  If that is the case that is what Clayton has shown up to this point. 

But as fans we had a taste of a WR in his rookie year that was dominating.  Right now he is an average possesion WR that is a very good run blocker.


karen anderson

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#4 : November 26, 2006, 10:07:11 AM

When MC80 was dominant in his rookie year wasn't Joey hurt?

alldaway

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#5 : November 26, 2006, 10:09:26 AM

When MC80 was dominant in his rookie year wasn't Joey hurt?

This is true.

Now that I think of that year I do remember Clayton dropping passes his rookie year as well.  The difference?  He was able to generate YAC.

That is what makes Galloway good as well.  Galloway does drop balls (as does Steve Smith) but he can make big plays after a few catches so the drops are negated.


rpc1978

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#6 : November 26, 2006, 10:49:42 AM

Clayton's rookie year was an aberation. He had a lot more passes thrown his way that season due to McCardell's holdout and injuries to the WRs in front of him.  You could have predicted his numbers were going to dip somewhat once Galloway returned, but no one would have forcasted the dramatic statistical drop off.  The excuses for him only go so far, at some point the player is accountable.  Akili Smith played on a  terrible bengals team with no defense, weak o-line and poor coaching, yet he is still considered a bust.  My point is, you can make excuses all day for the lack of production on any player.  By that flawed logic, all players are potentially pro bowlers just waiting to play with the right QB, a good o-line, better supporting cast, coaching staff, etc. 

In the end, the cream will rise to the top.  If you are truly a good player, then you can produce regardless of what team you play on.  Admittedly, there are degrees of success and a player's production can be enhanced with an improved suporting cast. Still, good players rise above their circumstances and find ways to make an impact even on bad teams.  Clayton's opportunities have decreased since his rookie year for numerous reasons, but he has definitely not made the most of his limited chances.  He's isn't a bust yet, but he is certainly headed in that direction. 

bradentonian

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#7 : November 26, 2006, 01:56:46 PM

Maybe Gruden just wanted a solid possesion WR that could block? If that is the case that is what Clayton has shown up to this point.


I hope that's not the case, as we invested a 1st rounder in Clayton and the qualties you mentioned above are available much later.


alldaway

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#8 : November 26, 2006, 02:00:38 PM

Maybe Gruden just wanted a solid possesion WR that could block? If that is the case that is what Clayton has shown up to this point.


I hope that's not the case, as we invested a 1st rounder in Clayton and the qualties you mentioned above are available much later.

Well this leads to my next point.

To play devils advocate a player like Joseph could have been available later as well.  It is a trend that I see when it comes to players that Gruden prefers on offense from the draft .  I would prefer a team draft players that have potential to be Pro Bowlers in the first round but it looks like Gruden prefers the safe picks.  Solid players compared to the players with upside. 


mjs020294

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#9 : November 26, 2006, 02:06:48 PM

Clayton is failing to get separation, and he is dropping balls on his hands.  He isn't a bust yet but his current form suggests he will be.


bradentonian

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#10 : November 26, 2006, 02:09:33 PM

Maybe Gruden just wanted a solid possesion WR that could block? If that is the case that is what Clayton has shown up to this point.

I hope that's not the case, as we invested a 1st rounder in Clayton and the qualties you mentioned above are available much later.

Well this leads to my next point.

To play devils advocate a player like Joseph could have been available later as well. It is a trend that I see when it comes to players that Gruden prefers on offense from the draft . I would prefer a team draft players that have potential to be Pro Bowlers in the first round but it looks like Gruden prefers the safe picks. Solid players compared to the players with upside.



Steven Jackson was a very safe pick there, and I'm still puzzled that we passed over him.  I hear what you are saying though. 
Which of these drafts would have looked better?

1st       Davin Joseph             or            Greg Jennings
3rd       Maurice Stovall                         Jahri Evans



alldaway

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#11 : November 26, 2006, 02:12:34 PM

Clayton is failing to get separation, and he is dropping balls on his hands.  He isn't a bust yet but his current form suggests he will be.

Galloway, Alstott, Carnell, Smith, Pittman etc are all dropping balls that hit their hands as well.  And of that group only Carnell is excused as he is showing improvement in an area we know has been a weakness for him in the past.  Clayton is being blamed too much for the drops but in reality the others are just as guilty when it comes to drops.  Richard Mann needs to improve everyone's ability to pass catch.  Valero does not receive a pass with me either.

But the issue I have with Clayton is that he is not dominating.  Maybe it is in part becuase he can not seperate? I do not know.  But Gruden sounds pleased with Clayton so far this year (especially with his run blocking) which kind of took me by suprise. I thought Gruden would be dissapointed with Clayton not taking over games.    Then again Gruden's opinion can change like the wind.




yuccaneers

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#12 : November 27, 2006, 01:17:22 AM

MJS,

Do you think that is in part to the weight gain and injuries over the last few years? Also is he finishes with around 50 catches and Galloway finishes with around 80 catches isnt that just stating that Galloway is the number one with Clayton being the number two. I would take that as being decent considering how bad the offense is struggling and hope for and even better season from him in 2007. I think we as fans need to keep a postive light on things around here because most of would have sold are sould for a superbowl and now that tthe Buccaneers have won one we as fans knew that the payment to the DEVIL was going to be due at some point.

Did you think with an aging Defense and even Simms and the schedule that things were going to be all roses around here. At the begining of the season this team was only going to go as far as Simms took them and after seeing the mistakes in the frist three games we all new that is was going to be a burtal season.

Instead of looking to blame this person or that person lets look at some good things that have happened Bryants 62 yard field goal, the team traded McFarland for a second round pick, there out of cap hell, with more time to develope Gradkowski can be decent, Ruud has shown he can play, and the team is looking at a top five to top 10 draft pick. Not to mention 4 picks in the top 75 overall picks. those are all good thing headed for next season.


Boid Fink

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#13 : November 27, 2006, 01:20:51 AM

Clayton equals stinky doody.


gone

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#14 : November 27, 2006, 01:58:03 AM

I want to see clayton with another reciever's coach before I write him off.
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