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jtwright

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#15 : November 27, 2006, 05:33:50 AM

I made that point about weight a couple of times.  In his rookie year he seemed to have that burst and explosiveness. 

I remember after his rookie year, him saying that Gruden asked him to put weight on to be more physical.  After that he is an average receiver with no explosiveness. 

Does anyone think that putting on that extra bulk might have killed his career?  I guess that does not explain the hands though.

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#16 : November 27, 2006, 07:27:03 AM

Clayton is failing to get separation, and he is dropping balls on his hands. He isn't a bust yet but his current form suggests he will be.

Galloway, Alstott, Carnell, Smith, Pittman etc are all dropping balls that hit their hands as well. And of that group only Carnell is excused as he is showing improvement in an area we know has been a weakness for him in the past. Clayton is being blamed too much for the drops but in reality the others are just as guilty when it comes to drops. Richard Mann needs to improve everyone's ability to pass catch. Valero does not receive a pass with me either.

But the issue I have with Clayton is that he is not dominating. Maybe it is in part becuase he can not seperate? I do not know. But Gruden sounds pleased with Clayton so far this year (especially with his run blocking) which kind of took me by suprise. I thought Gruden would be dissapointed with Clayton not taking over games. Then again Gruden's opinion can change like the wind.




ADW,
Which brings us to the point where NONE of us know what the coaching staff is asking MC to do.  Is his primary role blocking for the run or being a dominant receiver.  Unless someone has a copy of the Bucs playbook how can we say whether MC is a bust or not?  If he is doing what the coaches are asking him to do, then he can't be considered a bust.  All receivers drop balls thrown to them.  Last Thursday he caught one ball in between 3 defenders that was a great play.....and he has made similar plays this year.  I'm not a big MC fan, but I just don't see how anyone can say he is a bust without having all the facts.

Truths:
1.  Never have an argument with an idiot.  They will drag you down to their level and then beat you with their experience.
2.  For some it would be better if they remained silent and be thought a fool than to speak and erase all doubt.

sniper5

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#17 : November 27, 2006, 07:42:39 AM

But Gruden sounds pleased with Clayton so far this year (especially with his run blocking) which kind of took me by suprise[/b]. I thought Gruden would be dissapointed with Clayton not taking over games. Then again Gruden's opinion can change like the wind.




I don't think anyone knows what Gruden really thinks.  The things he says to the media often have little to no truth behind them, whether it's about Grads, Clayton, Simms, or any other player.  While many coaches are less than forthcoming with the media, Gruden is often outright misleading.  I actually think it is one of his strengths as a coach, and has probably helped keep his locker room together through this tough season.  The players know he will keep things in-house.  While this might be frustrating to fans, I'm sure the players appreciate it.

alldaway

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#18 : November 27, 2006, 07:49:19 AM

Clayton is failing to get separation, and he is dropping balls on his hands. He isn't a bust yet but his current form suggests he will be.

Galloway, Alstott, Carnell, Smith, Pittman etc are all dropping balls that hit their hands as well. And of that group only Carnell is excused as he is showing improvement in an area we know has been a weakness for him in the past. Clayton is being blamed too much for the drops but in reality the others are just as guilty when it comes to drops. Richard Mann needs to improve everyone's ability to pass catch. Valero does not receive a pass with me either.

But the issue I have with Clayton is that he is not dominating. Maybe it is in part becuase he can not seperate? I do not know. But Gruden sounds pleased with Clayton so far this year (especially with his run blocking) which kind of took me by suprise. I thought Gruden would be dissapointed with Clayton not taking over games. Then again Gruden's opinion can change like the wind.




ADW,
Which brings us to the point where NONE of us know what the coaching staff is asking MC to do.  Is his primary role blocking for the run or being a dominant receiver.  Unless someone has a copy of the Bucs playbook how can we say whether MC is a bust or not?  If he is doing what the coaches are asking him to do, then he can't be considered a bust.  All receivers drop balls thrown to them.  Last Thursday he caught one ball in between 3 defenders that was a great play.....and he has made similar plays this year.  I'm not a big MC fan, but I just don't see how anyone can say he is a bust without having all the facts.

That is what we do not know.  Maybe their expectations are different from ours?

With that said if Clayton is not explosvie anymore he has to improve his pass catching ability.  He has to bring something to the table other than being a younger version of Ike Hilliard 2.0 or a highly paid Paris Warren clone.  Then again Gruden tends to collect WR's like this.    TO, Galloway, Smith, etc can get away with drops becuase they can make big plays and have explosiveness.    With that said Keyshawn is not that explosive but he has an above average YAC rating compared to Clayton.  That is where you have to be concerned about Clayton in the long haul.  Just my two cents.


Maybe Gruden just wanted a solid possesion WR that could block? If that is the case that is what Clayton has shown up to this point.

I hope that's not the case, as we invested a 1st rounder in Clayton and the qualties you mentioned above are available much later.

Well this leads to my next point.

To play devils advocate a player like Joseph could have been available later as well. It is a trend that I see when it comes to players that Gruden prefers on offense from the draft . I would prefer a team draft players that have potential to be Pro Bowlers in the first round but it looks like Gruden prefers the safe picks. Solid players compared to the players with upside.



Steven Jackson was a very safe pick there, and I'm still puzzled that we passed over him.  I hear what you are saying though. 
Which of these drafts would have looked better?

1st       Davin Joseph             or            Greg Jennings
3rd       Maurice Stovall                         Jahri Evans




Hard to tell at this point with Stovall becuase for some reason he is not playing much.  With that said the Bucs could have traded down (not easy to do) or taking someone else with their first round pick and obtained Jennings with Evans which would have been sweet.  Then again no Zemaitis.  :P  Zemaitis and Stovall were the value picks but it is unfortunate we have not seen them on the field.  But my gut feeling is these players will suprise us down the road.




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#19 : November 27, 2006, 09:11:12 AM

whats the point of all this?

He hasn't performed well these last 2 seasons (including this one), and for him not to be considered a bust his production needs to improve.

alldaway

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#20 : November 27, 2006, 09:22:42 AM

ADW,
Which brings us to the point where NONE of us know what the coaching staff is asking MC to do.  Is his primary role blocking for the run or being a dominant receiver.  Unless someone has a copy of the Bucs playbook how can we say whether MC is a bust or not?  If he is doing what the coaches are asking him to do, then he can't be considered a bust.  All receivers drop balls thrown to them.  Last Thursday he caught one ball in between 3 defenders that was a great play.....and he has made similar plays this year.  I'm not a big MC fan, but I just don't see how anyone can say he is a bust without having all the facts.

OK, if his "primary role" is to be a blocker, then he's a bust. You don't draft WR's #1 overall to be blockers. His role is to be a legitmate target and right now he has fewer catches than Sammie Parker and Cedric Wilson. If you think that is what your R1 WR should be doing, you are nuts.

Heres' a bad sign, go to NFL.com, go to stats, go to the bottom of the page and select the Wide Recievers radio button. Sort the results by yards per catch. Now, at the bottom you will see 1-50, 51-100, 101-152. Click that "101-152" option becuase that is where you'll find Clayton ahead of only about a dozen NFL WR's with more than 10 catches - one of them being our own Lil' TE Ike Hilliard. That's awful for a guy who was a league leader in RAC his first season.

Let's be clear, this offense runs through a  player like Clayton and his failure to perform has a huge effect on how badly a QB, especially noe like Grads, plays becuase the short and intermediate game ain't there.

Well back to my point you do not draft guards in the first round either but that is what the Bucs did so there might be some truth to it even though we may not see the value of an ordinary WR that is good at blocking.  You must understand Gruden values players and skills differently (Eg has an obssesion with TE's).


alldaway

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#21 : November 27, 2006, 12:07:00 PM


Well back to my point you do not draft guards in the first round either but that is what the Bucs did so there might be some truth to it even though we may not see the value of an ordinary WR that is good at blocking.  You must understand Gruden values players and skills differently (Eg has an obssesion with TE's).


He does and he clearly wants a WR who blocks (and everyone does becuase WR blocking is huge in getting big plays) BUT he wants one who catches and makes plays AND blocks. The former condition is not optional at the position. That's like sayng he wants a QB with great intangibles but who can't throw the ball well.

Gruden would prefer a prototype Qb that is 6'5 that is strong with a cannon arm and mobile.  He would love to have a big, atheltic o-line, with big towering WR's with speed and a back that is a gamebreaker every time he touches the ball on the ground or throug the air.

Reality is Gannon is not Gruden's prototype QB.  In reality Galloway is not Gruden's prototype WR.  The closest things to a big athletic o-line would be the Raiders but they were not that athletic. Carnell is no Wesbrook/Garner that Gruden clamors for.

Clayton seems to be Gruden's prototype WR but Gruden's prototype WR's are supposed to be playmakers as well.  And yet Gruden seems pleased with Clayton?  I am asking the same question that you are.  Why?

Is is possible Gruden sees Clayton as a solid #2 WR?  In my opinion drafting a player in the first round to be secondary player is borderline madness but it is hard to tell with Gruden.   When you draft a player in the first round you expect them to at least to have Pro Bowl potential.   

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#22 : November 27, 2006, 12:10:08 PM


Well back to my point you do not draft guards in the first round either but that is what the Bucs did so there might be some truth to it even though we may not see the value of an ordinary WR that is good at blocking. You must understand Gruden values players and skills differently (Eg has an obssesion with TE's).


He does and he clearly wants a WR who blocks (and everyone does becuase WR blocking is huge in getting big plays) BUT he wants one who catches and makes plays AND blocks. The former condition is not optional at the position. That's like sayng he wants a QB with great intangibles but who can't throw the ball well.
Hines Ward is Grudens Wet Dream.


alldaway

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#23 : November 27, 2006, 12:15:16 PM


Well back to my point you do not draft guards in the first round either but that is what the Bucs did so there might be some truth to it even though we may not see the value of an ordinary WR that is good at blocking. You must understand Gruden values players and skills differently (Eg has an obssesion with TE's).


He does and he clearly wants a WR who blocks (and everyone does becuase WR blocking is huge in getting big plays) BUT he wants one who catches and makes plays AND blocks. The former condition is not optional at the position. That's like sayng he wants a QB with great intangibles but who can't throw the ball well.
Hines Ward is Grudens Wet Dream.

True.

Pick6

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#24 : November 27, 2006, 03:26:13 PM

nobody's been as successful throwing to clayton as brian griese was - since he lost the starting QB job, clayton's been pretty ineffective....i'll let everyone else sort out what, if anything, that tells us about clayton, and what solutions, if any, can be extrapolated from that info.



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#25 : November 27, 2006, 03:35:00 PM

I like Clayton, but bottom line: he was drafted in the mid first round.  If a WR is drafted that high, he should be a number 1 guy.  He's not, and he wouldn't be for any team in the NFL that I can think of off the top of my head.

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#26 : November 27, 2006, 05:05:18 PM

Yuccaneers, thank you for an intelligent argument with something to back it up.  The problem with Clayton is that he hasn't had the presence to demand the ball.  He doesn't explode off the line and doesn't make the big plays when he needs to.  Galloway also has a tendency to drop the ball, as you have aptly argued.  However, Galloway also makes splash plays that change the complexion of a game.  Clayton doesn't have the speed to run away from anyone and hasn't shown the presence to go up and take a ball away from a defender.  I think that Clayton may become a solid #2 WR in time.  However, for the Bucs, a legit #1 is needed in the immediate future.  Galloway is too old to count on in the future.  I am in favor of drafting a player like Calvin Johnson with our first pick.  Unfortunately / fortunately, we look to be in position to grab him or Jarrett. 

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#27 : November 27, 2006, 06:39:37 PM

Yuccaneers, thank you for an intelligent argument with something to back it up. The problem with Clayton is that he hasn't had the presence to demand the ball. He doesn't explode off the line and doesn't make the big plays when he needs to. Galloway also has a tendency to drop the ball, as you have aptly argued. However, Galloway also makes splash plays that change the complexion of a game. Clayton doesn't have the speed to run away from anyone and hasn't shown the presence to go up and take a ball away from a defender. I think that Clayton may become a solid #2 WR in time. However, for the Bucs, a legit #1 is needed in the immediate future. Galloway is too old to count on in the future. I am in favor of drafting a player like Calvin Johnson with our first pick. Unfortunately / fortunately, we look to be in position to grab him or Jarrett.


Gruden has stated that Stovall is an "X" receiver, and is being groomed to replace Galloway.  If anything, we need a replacement for Clayton, which would be at the "Z" position.  This is not a premium position and should not require a premium pick.


alldaway

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#28 : November 27, 2006, 09:16:20 PM

Yuccaneers, thank you for an intelligent argument with something to back it up. The problem with Clayton is that he hasn't had the presence to demand the ball. He doesn't explode off the line and doesn't make the big plays when he needs to. Galloway also has a tendency to drop the ball, as you have aptly argued. However, Galloway also makes splash plays that change the complexion of a game. Clayton doesn't have the speed to run away from anyone and hasn't shown the presence to go up and take a ball away from a defender. I think that Clayton may become a solid #2 WR in time. However, for the Bucs, a legit #1 is needed in the immediate future. Galloway is too old to count on in the future. I am in favor of drafting a player like Calvin Johnson with our first pick. Unfortunately / fortunately, we look to be in position to grab him or Jarrett.


Gruden has stated that Stovall is an "X" receiver, and is being groomed to replace Galloway.  If anything, we need a replacement for Clayton, which would be at the "Z" position.  This is not a premium position and should not require a premium pick.

With the way Clayton is playing he looks like Paris Warren out there.  If you were to put Paris Warren out there in place of Clayton sadly you would not notice the difference.

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#29 : November 27, 2006, 09:54:01 PM


Gruden has stated that Stovall is an "X" receiver, and is being groomed to replace Galloway.  If anything, we need a replacement for Clayton, which would be at the "Z" position.  This is not a premium position and should not require a premium pick.


If Clayton's spot in the offense isn't a premium spot then why did we spend a premium pick on it in the first place? Clayton should be the meat and potatoes of this offense. Galloway should be the garnish. The fact that Clayton has failed to develop/regressed is why Galloway is the mian man.

Offensive guard is not a premium spot either when you take one in the first round.  :o
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