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krazybuc

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#30 : January 19, 2008, 07:55:11 PM



wow... seriously, put the blunt down and go back to school.

assuming a person is racist because of the rebel flag is racist itself.

apparently common sense isnt so common huh?

The basis of the flag, and the war fought over it, was to further allow slavery and the hanging of black people.

You are right, common sense isnt so common. You racist redneck

The basis of the flag? Since you love wikipedia...http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Flags_of_the_Confederate_States_of_America

Pay special attention to the first sentence that highlights how the Confederates used a lot of different flags.

The war's main basis was slavery, but Lincoln wasn't trying to outlaw it completely. He wanted to ban the new territories from allowing it, however, it would still be allowed in the current states.

And the war was not fought for the right to hang black people... Now you're just pulling comments out of your rear.

The fact that you had to call me a 'racist redneck' b/c you've been gettin your butt handed to you in two threads shows that you arent all that smart. Just stick to smokin up pal cause apparently education isnt your strong spot.

krazybuc

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#31 : January 19, 2008, 07:57:34 PM

How can you say it doesn't represent that?

Because I have an education. It's obviously open to interpretation the meaning of the flag, but the fact that a person immediately thinks you're a racist for wearing it is prejudice itself and thus makes that person a huge hypocrite.

It's really very simple.

Gatorgirls post was right on.




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#32 : January 19, 2008, 08:01:42 PM

Im sorry I just dont understand still. If someone has a swastik symbol tattooed on their arm, does it make me racist for calling them a racist piece of white trash? Maybe they just have it because they they are proud to be German right?


Saying stuff like "burn!" doesnt win an argument

Until you can bring some real material you LOSE

I googled the word '**CENSORED**' to give mjs the definition. Now I love wikipedia?

gatorgirl gave every reason (very good ones) why she is proud to be from the south. She didnt give any explanation for why it is not racist to wave a confederate flag. Germans may be proud to be German, but they dont wave nazi flags to show their pride. You are proud to be on the losing side of a war on racism. Simple as that. Im sure the cowboy boots and nuthugging jeans are enough to show people you are a proud southerner. Waving a **CENSORED** flag is just a sign of racism





ufojoe

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#33 : January 19, 2008, 08:05:46 PM

I was at the Maher show and DLH's comments were part shock value, humor and part
truth. Do you really think he believes everybody with a Conf. Flag is a racist? IMO, he's
too smart for that. Listen to what else he had to say about the southern crowds he
encounters when performing. Some good stuff about them. You have to remember
that it's a show.

My question is this: If you know that certain people are offended and hurt by the flag,
why do you find it necessary to put it out for everybody to see? Is it worth causing those
feelings to others? I know you have your first amendment right to do it. That's not the
point. I wouldn't let a piece of cloth upset me but not everybody is like that.

When I was younger, I would play music real loud because I knew it would offend
adults who were in ear shot of the music and I didn't care. But as I got older, I
stopped doing that. I don't go out of my way to offend people now. I grew up.
Having the flag in your house because it means something to you? I understand.
But out in the open in your car? For what purpose? I know. Because you can.

I don't think anybody is a racist because they have a flag or whatever else. Their
words and actions are what I judge.

My first impression when I see that flag is that the person who it belongs to doesn't
give a crap about how it makes others feel. That's it. If I see the person and they
look they're also spitting tobacco or some other redneck, stereotypical activity,
I would probably assume that they were ignorant. But that wouldn't be my
final answer. I'd give them a chance to prove me wrong. Or right. I'd withhold
judgment. But first impressions are sometimes hard to overcome.

krazybuc

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#34 : January 19, 2008, 08:06:10 PM

you truly are hopeless... you do know the swastika, although used by nazis, isnt a german sign right.... it's actually a religious sign.

and obviously you need to go back and read her post again.

jiminy christmas. no wonder our schools are failing.

Sgt.Shultz

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#35 : January 19, 2008, 08:09:12 PM

Everything is racist. Im surprised Al Sharpton hasnt showed up in this thread. He is going to call for your head Krazy.


Besides, the "stars and bars" flag looks nicer.




vs.



If you had to choose between the more creative design and which stood out more, Whatever people try and spin around and make it out to be, its still a very nice design and a nice flag.


krazybuc

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#36 : January 19, 2008, 08:09:53 PM

I was at the Maher show and DLH's comments were part shock value, humor and part
truth. Do you really think he believes everybody with a Conf. Flag is a racist? IMO, he's
too smart for that. Listen to what else he had to say about the southern crowds he
encounters when performing. Some good stuff about them. You have to remember
that it's a show.

My question is this: If you know that certain people are offended and hurt by the flag,
why do you find it necessary to put it out for everybody to see? Is it worth causing those
feelings to others? I know you have your first amendment right to do it. That's not the
point. I wouldn't let a piece of cloth upset me but not everybody is like that.

When I was younger, I would play music real loud because I knew it would offend
adults who were in ear shot of the music and I didn't care. But as I got older, I
stopped doing that. I don't go out of my way to offend people now. I grew up.
Having the flag in your house because it means something to you? I understand.
But out in the open in your car? For what purpose? I know. Because you can.

I don't think anybody is a racist because they have a flag or whatever else. Their
words and actions are what I judge.

My first impression when I see that flag is that the person who it belongs to doesn't
give a crap about how it makes others feel. That's it. If I see the person and they
look they're also spitting tobacco or some other redneck, stereotypical activity,
I would probably assume that they were ignorant. But that wouldn't be my
final answer. I'd give them a chance to prove me wrong. Or right. I'd withhold
judgment. But first impressions are sometimes hard to overcome.


Yes it is offensive to some. But those that do find it offensive *RB* are obviously naive about it.

I have it on my jeep b/c to me it stands for southern pride. I'm proud that I like to go fishing and hunting and i like to go muddin in my jeep and go do all the things that country folk / rednecks do.

however, im not racist in the slightest. they only people i'm prejudice to are stupid people.

ufojoe

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#37 : January 19, 2008, 08:10:04 PM

Here's the video for those who didn't see it...

http://cliffschecter.bravenewfilms.org/blog/25483-real-time-huckabee-and-the-confederate-flag

Bucs_Rule

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#38 : January 19, 2008, 08:10:55 PM

How can you say it doesn't represent that?

Because I have an education. It's obviously open to interpretation the meaning of the flag, but the fact that a person immediately thinks you're a racist for wearing it is prejudice itself and thus makes that person a huge hypocrite.

It's really very simple.

Gatorgirls post was right on.



Where did I say that if you have the flag your a racist? I just said that to black people the flag represents slavery.

gatorgirl!

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#39 : January 19, 2008, 08:11:23 PM


gatorgirl gave every reason (very good ones) why she is proud to be from the south. She didnt give any explanation for why it is not racist to wave a confederate flag. Germans may be proud to be German, but they dont wave nazi flags to show their pride. You are proud to be on the losing side of a war on racism. Simple as that. Im sure the cowboy boots and nuthugging jeans are enough to show people you are a proud southerner. Waving a **CENSORED** flag is just a sign of racism



Thank you for the props. What I was trying to say, is the reason I condone the rebel flag, is because I'm proud of it's southern heritage because I'm proud of being from the south. It means to me exactly what I wrote about why I'm proud of the south. That's it. No racism. Just southern pride.

gatorgirl!

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#40 : January 19, 2008, 08:18:27 PM

Here.....why the confederate flag does not represent slavery, except to those that choose to interpet it that way. The civil war was not fought on the basis of slavery. It is commonly mistaken as such, partly due to the way schools teach the war of being one between the good (north) and bad (south) guys. Now....I do not wish to be a part of my own country, I am a proud American until the day I die. But here is some of the reasoning for the war.

I provided the link, but it is a biased southern view. Just FYI. Ignore the garbage, yes there is alot of it, and read the "third lie" (regarding the meaning of the flag). I don't mean to put down Lincoln, I think he was a great president. But here's a little history recap for ALL OF US who did not live during the Civil War and only know what our textbooks chose to tell us.
http://www.pointsouth.com/csanet/confederate_flag.htm

During the War for Southern Independence, many in the North also had slaves, but refused to free their slaves until after the War. People in Delaware, Maryland, Kentucky, Missouri, West Virginia, and even Washington, D.C., owned slaves; these states never seceded and were under the control of the United States throughout the course of the entire War. However, they were not required to free their slaves by the U.S. government. The U.S. Congress in 1862 even refused to pass a constitutional amendment abolishing slavery, when the only Senators and Representatives in Congress were from the North (all Southerners had left Congress to form their own nation). How could the North be fighting the War to free Southern slaves when they would not free their own, such as Ulysses S. Grant's personal slave or Abraham Lincoln's father-in-law's slaves? What hypocrisy! Even worse, Lincoln and the U.S. Congress offered to pass a constitutional amendment for the South, guaranteeing permanent slavery forever in the slave states, if only the Southern states would return to the Union. The South refused the offer.
         Northern slaves were even exempt from Lincoln's Emancipation Proclamation. Furthermore, captured Southern slaves on the Mississippi River were forced to work on the plantations as slaves for the United States Army, growing cotton for Northern factories, rather than being set free. Also, during the War, just as many Union soldiers owned slaves as Confederate soldiers. Is the U.S. flag a symbol of slavery because the North owned slaves during the War? If not, then neither is the Confederate battle flag a symbol of slavery. How could the War have been fought over slavery when both sides had slaves?
         The War for Southern Independence was fought over local self-government by the South versus centralist government by the North; the centralist government won and the local selfgovernment lost. The Confederate battle flag is the symbol of the right of the local people and the states to govern themselves and is flown in memory and honor of our Confederate ancestors and veterans who gave their lives for less government, less taxes, and Southern independence.
         In his inaugural address of March 4, 1861, U.S. President Abraham Lincoln stated, "I have no purpose, directly or indirectly, to interfere with the institution of slavery in the States where it exists. I believe I have no lawful right to do so, and I have no inclination to do so." Furthermore, Union General U.S. Grant said, "If I thought this war was to abolish slavery, I would resign my commission, and offer my sword to the other side."
         A war over slavery? Not hardly!
         The Confederate States of America even offered to free all Southern slaves in return for independence; Lincoln refused the offer. The term "free state" meant free from Blacks. Northerners did not want to live with Blacks, slave or free, and many Northern states and territories actually passed laws prohibiting free Blacks from entering into them. Lincoln himself stated the opinion of the Northern people at during a meeting with a group of Black leaders during the War, saying, "There is an unwillingness on the part of our people [Northern Whites] to live with you free colored people. Whether this is right or wrong, I am not prepared to discuss, but it is a fact with which we must deal. Therefore, I think it best for us to separate." Acting upon this sentiment, Abraham Lincoln and the United States Congress purchased land, passed laws, and started shipping free Northern Blacks out of the country down to poverty-stricken Haiti. Lincoln put together several such schemes to remove free Blacks from the United States, to send some back to Africa and some to Central and South America. At the end of the War, a few weeks before Lincoln was assassinated, Union General Benjamin Butler asked him what he was going to do with all the recently free Southern Blacks. To this Lincoln replied, "I think we should deport them all."
         Meanwhile, down South, Confederate States President Jefferson Davis and his wife Varina were adopting an eight-year-old free Black orphan boy named Jim Limber. After his mother died, little Jim was placed with a free Black family as foster parents. However, this family badly mistreated him to such a degree that the news reached the ears of the President and Mrs. Davis, who, in the middle of the War, took the time and effort to intercede and rescue Jim from this child abuse. Little Jim's wounds were doctored and he was welcomed into the Confederate White House as a member of the Davis family. President Davis himself went to court in Richmond and had free papers registered on Jim Limber, so he would always be free. Even when our President was on his way to prison for trying to obtain independence and self-government for the Southern people, he made arrangements and provided for Jim Limber's future education and care. In the Old South it was not uncommon for Blacks to take in orphaned Whites or for Whites to take in orphaned Blacks. There was a relationship between Blacks and Whites that Northerners even today do not understand or appreciate.
         The War for Southern Independence was fought over the right of the local people to govern themselves versus a centralist government by the few, the rich, and the powerful. The South wanted less government, less taxes, independence, and decisions made at the local level where the people have control. The North wanted more taxes, more government, and centralism, with a compulsory union at bayonet point and decisions made in Washington D.C. rather than by the local people. The South stood on the principles of the Southerner Thomas Jefferson, who in the Declaration of Independence, stated, "Governments are instituted among men, deriving their just powers from the consent of the governed; that, whenever any form of government becomes destructive of these ends, it is the right of the people to alter or to abolish it, and to institute a new government." In other words, the people should control the government, not the government controlling the people. The North stood on the principles of the Northerner Alexander Hamilton, who believed that government should be ruled by an intellectual aristocracy, maintained by the enlightened self-interest of the wealthy rather than the common people, governing themselves. Northern Abolitionists such as William Lloyd Garrison, burned the U.S. Constitution in the streets, calling it "a pact with the devil." Lincoln likewise brutally violated nearly every article and amendment to the U.S. Constitution, throwing over 35,000 Northern Citizens in prison as political prisoners, including state legislators, without cause or trial, as well as, violently closing a dozen opposition newspapers and suppressing freedom of speech.
         President Jefferson Davis and the Confederate States Congress never did such things. The Southern people took the U.S. Constitution with them when they voluntarily withdrew from the voluntary Union and brought forth upon this continent, a new nation, where the right of the local people to govern themselves was protected.
         Just as with the War for American Independence of 1776, the War for Southern Independence of 1861 was fought over "taxation without representation." The North was constantly trying to raise taxes on Southerners through high tariffs on imported goods, in order to protect the inefficient big businesses in the North which could not compete with manufactured goods from England and France with whom the South traded cotton. The South did not have factories and had to import most finished products.

ufojoe

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#41 : January 19, 2008, 08:19:37 PM

Yes it is offensive to some. But those that do find it offensive *RB* are obviously naive about it.

I have it on my jeep b/c to me it stands for southern pride. I'm proud that I like to go fishing
and hunting and i like to go muddin in my jeep and go do all the things that country
folk / rednecks do.

however, im not racist in the slightest. they only people i'm prejudice to are stupid people.

Leave Ronde out of it. I'm not talking about him.

From a design standpoint, I think the flag looks great. But since I know how it makes
certain people feel, I'm not going to display it for all to see. It's just not who I am. I
put other people's feelings above my liking a piece of cloth.

Now, there are some things that I feel real strong about and if they offend or upset people,
then too bad. But a flag? Nah. I'd save my offensive actions for something a lot more
important to me. Like my thoughts on religion. Although, even then, in person, if I
sense somebody really bothered by what I'm saying, I'll just change the subject.

But that's just me.

ufojoe

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#42 : January 19, 2008, 08:22:06 PM

Here.....why the confederate flag does not represent slavery, except to those that choose to interpet it that way. The civil war was not fought on the basis of slavery. It is commonly mistaken as such, partly due to the way schools teach the war of being one between the good (north) and bad (south) guys. Now....I do not wish to be a part of my own country, I am a proud American until the day I die. But here is some of the reasoning for the war.

Really doesn't matter what the true meaning is. Many African Americans are offended and upset when
they see the flag. And you can't admit that. Either that, or you just don't give a crap. Your
Southern pride and displaying the flag is more important to you than the feelings of others.
That's fine. Just not how I "treat" other people.

Sgt.Shultz

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#43 : January 19, 2008, 08:23:13 PM

Here.....why the confederate flag does not represent slavery, except to those that choose to interpet it that way. The civil war was not fought on the basis of slavery. It is commonly mistaken as such, partly due to the way schools teach the war of being one between the good (north) and bad (south) guys. Now....I do not wish to be a part of my own country, I am a proud American until the day I die. But here is some of the reasoning for the war.

I provided the link, but it is a biased southern view. Just FYI. Ignore the garbage, yes there is alot of it, and read the "third lie" (regarding the meaning of the flag). I don't mean to put down Lincoln, I think he was a great president. But here's a little history recap for ALL OF US who did not live during the Civil War and only know what our textbooks chose to tell us.
http://www.pointsouth.com/csanet/confederate_flag.htm

During the War for Southern Independence, many in the North also had slaves, but refused to free their slaves until after the War. People in Delaware, Maryland, Kentucky, Missouri, West Virginia, and even Washington, D.C., owned slaves; these states never seceded and were under the control of the United States throughout the course of the entire War. However, they were not required to free their slaves by the U.S. government. The U.S. Congress in 1862 even refused to pass a constitutional amendment abolishing slavery, when the only Senators and Representatives in Congress were from the North (all Southerners had left Congress to form their own nation). How could the North be fighting the War to free Southern slaves when they would not free their own, such as Ulysses S. Grant's personal slave or Abraham Lincoln's father-in-law's slaves? What hypocrisy! Even worse, Lincoln and the U.S. Congress offered to pass a constitutional amendment for the South, guaranteeing permanent slavery forever in the slave states, if only the Southern states would return to the Union. The South refused the offer.
 Â        Northern slaves were even exempt from Lincoln's Emancipation Proclamation. Furthermore, captured Southern slaves on the Mississippi River were forced to work on the plantations as slaves for the United States Army, growing cotton for Northern factories, rather than being set free. Also, during the War, just as many Union soldiers owned slaves as Confederate soldiers. Is the U.S. flag a symbol of slavery because the North owned slaves during the War? If not, then neither is the Confederate battle flag a symbol of slavery. How could the War have been fought over slavery when both sides had slaves?
 Â        The War for Southern Independence was fought over local self-government by the South versus centralist government by the North; the centralist government won and the local selfgovernment lost. The Confederate battle flag is the symbol of the right of the local people and the states to govern themselves and is flown in memory and honor of our Confederate ancestors and veterans who gave their lives for less government, less taxes, and Southern independence.
 Â        In his inaugural address of March 4, 1861, U.S. President Abraham Lincoln stated, "I have no purpose, directly or indirectly, to interfere with the institution of slavery in the States where it exists. I believe I have no lawful right to do so, and I have no inclination to do so." Furthermore, Union General U.S. Grant said, "If I thought this war was to abolish slavery, I would resign my commission, and offer my sword to the other side."
 Â        A war over slavery? Not hardly!
 Â        The Confederate States of America even offered to free all Southern slaves in return for independence; Lincoln refused the offer. The term "free state" meant free from Blacks. Northerners did not want to live with Blacks, slave or free, and many Northern states and territories actually passed laws prohibiting free Blacks from entering into them. Lincoln himself stated the opinion of the Northern people at during a meeting with a group of Black leaders during the War, saying, "There is an unwillingness on the part of our people [Northern Whites] to live with you free colored people. Whether this is right or wrong, I am not prepared to discuss, but it is a fact with which we must deal. Therefore, I think it best for us to separate." Acting upon this sentiment, Abraham Lincoln and the United States Congress purchased land, passed laws, and started shipping free Northern Blacks out of the country down to poverty-stricken Haiti. Lincoln put together several such schemes to remove free Blacks from the United States, to send some back to Africa and some to Central and South America. At the end of the War, a few weeks before Lincoln was assassinated, Union General Benjamin Butler asked him what he was going to do with all the recently free Southern Blacks. To this Lincoln replied, "I think we should deport them all."
 Â        Meanwhile, down South, Confederate States President Jefferson Davis and his wife Varina were adopting an eight-year-old free Black orphan boy named Jim Limber. After his mother died, little Jim was placed with a free Black family as foster parents. However, this family badly mistreated him to such a degree that the news reached the ears of the President and Mrs. Davis, who, in the middle of the War, took the time and effort to intercede and rescue Jim from this child abuse. Little Jim's wounds were doctored and he was welcomed into the Confederate White House as a member of the Davis family. President Davis himself went to court in Richmond and had free papers registered on Jim Limber, so he would always be free. Even when our President was on his way to prison for trying to obtain independence and self-government for the Southern people, he made arrangements and provided for Jim Limber's future education and care. In the Old South it was not uncommon for Blacks to take in orphaned Whites or for Whites to take in orphaned Blacks. There was a relationship between Blacks and Whites that Northerners even today do not understand or appreciate.
 Â        The War for Southern Independence was fought over the right of the local people to govern themselves versus a centralist government by the few, the rich, and the powerful. The South wanted less government, less taxes, independence, and decisions made at the local level where the people have control. The North wanted more taxes, more government, and centralism, with a compulsory union at bayonet point and decisions made in Washington D.C. rather than by the local people. The South stood on the principles of the Southerner Thomas Jefferson, who in the Declaration of Independence, stated, "Governments are instituted among men, deriving their just powers from the consent of the governed; that, whenever any form of government becomes destructive of these ends, it is the right of the people to alter or to abolish it, and to institute a new government." In other words, the people should control the government, not the government controlling the people. The North stood on the principles of the Northerner Alexander Hamilton, who believed that government should be ruled by an intellectual aristocracy, maintained by the enlightened self-interest of the wealthy rather than the common people, governing themselves. Northern Abolitionists such as William Lloyd Garrison, burned the U.S. Constitution in the streets, calling it "a pact with the devil." Lincoln likewise brutally violated nearly every article and amendment to the U.S. Constitution, throwing over 35,000 Northern Citizens in prison as political prisoners, including state legislators, without cause or trial, as well as, violently closing a dozen opposition newspapers and suppressing freedom of speech.
 Â        President Jefferson Davis and the Confederate States Congress never did such things. The Southern people took the U.S. Constitution with them when they voluntarily withdrew from the voluntary Union and brought forth upon this continent, a new nation, where the right of the local people to govern themselves was protected.
 Â        Just as with the War for American Independence of 1776, the War for Southern Independence of 1861 was fought over "taxation without representation." The North was constantly trying to raise taxes on Southerners through high tariffs on imported goods, in order to protect the inefficient big businesses in the North which could not compete with manufactured goods from England and France with whom the South traded cotton. The South did not have factories and had to import most finished products.


QFT


krazybuc

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#44 : January 19, 2008, 08:29:00 PM

Yes it is offensive to some. But those that do find it offensive *RB* are obviously naive about it.

I have it on my jeep b/c to me it stands for southern pride. I'm proud that I like to go fishing
and hunting and i like to go muddin in my jeep and go do all the things that country
folk / rednecks do.

however, im not racist in the slightest. they only people i'm prejudice to are stupid people.

Leave Ronde out of it. I'm not talking about him.

From a design standpoint, I think the flag looks great. But since I know how it makes
certain people feel, I'm not going to display it for all to see. It's just not who I am. I
put other people's feelings above my liking a piece of cloth.

Now, there are some things that I feel real strong about and if they offend or upset people,
then too bad. But a flag? Nah. I'd save my offensive actions for something a lot more
important to me. Like my thoughts on religion. Although, even then, in person, if I
sense somebody really bothered by what I'm saying, I'll just change the subject.

But that's just me.

to those of us that live their life in a 'southern' style, that flag is more than just a piece of cloth or flag to us. it represents our lifestyle.

if it offends somebody, than i'm sorry, but i'm not changing my lifestyle b/c somebody wants to jump to a conclusion without inquiring. that's not my problem. that's theirs.

i dont assume the black kid with a crooked hat, gold teeth and baggy clothes is a drug dealer... and i'm willing to be he dont care what i assume about him.
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