interesting

I think Boid's point is that Gruden developed him.

my point is why can't he develop Bruce then?

[karen anderson]

This, however does not mean that he shouldn't try to get a better qb than an average journeyman. It would probably work out better & easier. You can develop a qb, but I think arm strength is there or not.

[ZenBuc]

1-10-CIN32   (2:58) B.Gradkowski sacked at CIN 40 for -8 yards (J.Smith).
PENALTY on CIN-J.Smith, Roughing the Passer, 15 yards, enforced at CIN 40.
1-10-CIN25   (2:45) B.Gradkowski pass short left to M.Pittman to CIN 15 for 10 yards (K.Kaesviharn).
1-10-CIN15   (2:00) B.Gradkowski pass incomplete short left to C.Williams.
2-10-CIN15   (1:52) B.Gradkowski pass short middle to J.Galloway to CIN 8 for 7 yards (C.Miller).
3-3-CIN8   (1:10) PENALTY on TB-S.Mahan, Tripping, 10 yards, enforced at CIN 8 - No Play.
3-13-CIN18   (1:00) B.Gradkowski pass short middle to M.Pittman to CIN 8 for 10 yards (D.O'Neal).
4-3-CIN8   (:43) B.Gradkowski pass incomplete short middle to M.Clayton. Play Challenged by Review Assistant and REVERSED. B.Gradkowski pass short middle to M.Clayton for 8 yards, TOUCHDOWN.

Thank you.

But in my opinion, it was a drive killer, that sack was.  And who knows if it would have been a fumble or not.

I don't have the game to look at, but the play-play doesn't say it's a fumble and I recall the ref pointed to the ground on the play, so I'd say it wasn't a fumble.
And that tripping penalty could have been a drive killer, but it wasn't.

Look, I'm not sold on Grads either, but he has done some good things; why try and diminish that?

This, however does not mean that he shouldn't try to get a better qb than an average journeyman. It would probably work out better & easier.

that's all that there is. Brunell, Plummer, Shaun King...all of those are journeyman, Schaub is Scott Mitchell waiting to happen.....Simms is fine by me....and what works out better than League MVP and leading his team to the SB?

[Boid Fink]

Boid, can you think of any quarterback that has "developed" armstrength? I thought you either have it or you don't

I have never heard of it.  THe guy has small hands, and is a young man, and his primary knock is that he cannot throw a deep pass effectively, could not even in college, and he has a weak arm.  I doubt lifting weights will give him an extra 5-6 MPH on his throws to be honest.

He is what he is is.  He is a system QB, with big limits on his skill set.  A QB should be able to make all the throws.  These arguments about timing make me think that if the wideouts are not that fast, how in the hell can he ever get the ball to them on the fly?  If Grads had three burners, or 3 playmakers, I can see it happening.  

Right now, I have seen Grads play and make the same lame duck throws over and over, and he gets a nice one in there once in a while.  Even he said he "Had to get one right" last week.  He is a system QB, and he runs it on a very average level.  Gannon could run Grudens offense like an MVP.

[ZenBuc]

Boid, can you think of any quarterback that has "developed" armstrength?   I thought you either have it or you don't

supposedly Brady worked on his arm and was able to improve on his deep passes....one of his negatives out of college was a weak arm. I'm not saying Grads can get better, but I guess it is possible

Gannon was a 10 year vet when Gruden found him....

[jtwright]

Gannon was an average journeyman, but didn't he have a pretty good arm and was close to as mobile as Grads

[karen anderson]

Brady was at Michigan--a bigger program than Toledo.

Brady was at Michigan--a bigger program than Toledo.

holy crap, that's possibly the dumbest thing I've ever heard....and I'm serious...BECAUSE EVERY #### QB FROM FLORIDA OR OHIO STATE IS GOOD...?!?! WTF TYPE OF ARGUMENT IS THAT?

[Boid Fink]

Gannon was an average journeyman, but didn't he have a pretty good arm and was close to as mobile as Grads

He definitely had more range than GRads did though.

And Zen, I am not diminshing his accomplishments to date.  But he hasn't really won games for the Bucs, his best game by far was his first and we have not seen that duplicated ONCE since, and I hope he undergoes mircle arm blessing before next year.

I also hope this warm front hovers in the area and passes after the Bucs play in Pitt.  Sigh.

Brady was at Michigan--a bigger program than Toledo.

holy crap, that's possibly the dumbest thing I've ever heard....and I'm serious...BECAUSE EVERY #### QB FROM FLORIDA OR OHIO STATE IS GOOD...?!?! WTF TYPE OF ARGUMENT IS THAT?

[karen anderson]

A good qb from Mich isn't better than one from Toledo?  They play tougher teams in a tougher conference.

A good qb from Mich isn't better than one from Toledo? They play tougher teams in a tougher conference.

....oh great point..Unitas is from Lousville, Wienkie from FSU...so I guess Cw > Unitas?

[karen anderson]

There are exceptions to every rule. Give it a rest, RJ, you're not convincing me. Go pick a fight with Boid, or somebody else who not kissing Grads butt.