Leinart and Young vs. Grads

[caradoc]

It isn't Karen.  At least she has a sense of humor.   There are just a ton of new posters here that are all dropping the same threads and the same statements over and over.  They hijack threads with personal attacks and insults, derail them with empty hate posts, which, unfortunately, people respond too.  MJS is right in that a lot of the older posters have left.  I'm not even one of the oldest, and I deleted my account several weeks ago and wasn't going to come back.  Unfortunately, there isn't much else out there.  The newer guys won't ever know what a great site this once was, hell even last year.  This was probably THE best place for actual in-depth, knowledgeable discussion of the bucs, and great for football in general.  Now the red board is only a bit better than TBBBB, and there isn't enough volume to sustain the PI board.  It's kinda sad...

[BUCFAN4LIFE]

Solid post Joe.

The only thing that has been said about Grads is that he is ahead of the curve for most rookies and he still is ahead of that curve. Look at Smith last year to this year. The whole thing with Grads is that you have to see if he'll turn the same thing in- Does he improve and get a better grasp is the question. And right now there is no way to tell that.

Karen whats frustrating is you add nothing to most of the posts -- you come in with a quick hit one liner bashing Grduen and Grads every opportunity you get. And most of the bashers do. Go to the wiser thread --Dalbuc does not like Grduen much at all and he posts intelligently with facts to explain why. Most of the bahers dont-- I have seen some posts out of you that are good but most lately are just the one liners spewing the same crap over and over.


What keeps me from posting in here is the lack of an intelligent argument but when there is one I throw my 2 cents in-- hell I wrote novels in the aforementioned thread.

Lately this place is full of Duemig type sockpuppets posting the same crap over and over and none of it supports this team. I really wonder why half of you even call yourself fans-- It's not like you can even conger up one positive aspect about the team. Why support a team that makes you so damn angry. Why spend time posting about them. Seems pretty damn pointless if you ask me. Seems pretty pointless to even waste the effort-- did you miss the 100's of threads already bashing the team.

I have a feeling thats where MJS is-- why post when all you get is Gruden sucks-- our rookie sucks-- blah--- blah---blah.

[Boid Fink]

The newer guys won't ever know what a great site this once was, hell even last year. This was probably THE best place for actual in-depth, knowledgeable discussion of the bucs, and great for football in general. Now the red board is only a bit better than TBBBB, and there isn't enough volume to sustain the PI board. It's kinda sad...

It is sad.  I wish more Buc fans would subscribe, but if the Bucs were the Colts, I think hte membership would be through the roof.

Winning above all brings the "consumers" AKA "the fans".  Bandwagon or not.

[Boid Fink]

Solid post Joe.

The only thing that has been said about Grads is that he is ahead of the curve for most rookies and he still is ahead of that curve. Look at Smith last year to this year. The whole thing with Grads is that you have to see if he'll turn the same thing in- Does he improve and get a better grasp is the question. And right now there is no way to tell that.

Karen whats frustrating is you add nothing to most of the posts -- you come in with a quick hit one liner bashing Grduen and Grads every opportunity you get. And most of the bashers do. Go to the wiser thread --Dalbuc does not like Grduen much at all and he posts intelligently with facts to explain why. Most of the bahers dont-- I have seen some posts out of you that are good but most lately are just the one liners spewing the same crap over and over.


What keeps me from posting in here is the lack of an intelligent argument but when there is one I throw my 2 cents in-- hell I wrote novels in the aforementioned thread.

Lately this place is full of Duemig type sockpuppets posting the same crap over and over and none of it supports this team. I really wonder why half of you even call yourself fans-- It's not like you can even conger up one positive aspect about the team. Why support a team that makes you so damn angry. Why spend time posting about them. Seems pretty damn pointless if you ask me. Seems pretty pointless to even waste the effort-- did you miss the 100's of threads already bashing the team.

I have a feeling thats where MJS is-- why post when all you get is Gruden sucks-- our rookie sucks-- blah--- blah---blah.

The problem is, Karen may bash with the best, but occasionally, she does render some points that people WHO WATCH THE GAMES would get.  There is no homerism involved, and while I disagree with a lot of things, as we all do, there is a tone she takes that is negative, and it is rendered because the BUCS are horrible this year.  Not just bad, but horrible.

Think about the possibility of not sending a single guy to the pro bowl this year, that is how bad the squad is.

Grads is a rookie, but he is not going to get props unless he has a game that makes you see what he has to offer.  Even a youth has moments that make you stand back and go DAMN!  Young bringing the Titans back for a win, with hardly ANY offensive talent, is a reason to get excited.  Watching Leinart almost beat the Bears and throw for 400 plus gives you reason to say he can maximize potential.  Grads...he just gets by, he has the rookie label as an excuse.  Occasionally he makes a nice scramble, about once a game.  But almost every outing he is going for about 130, around .50 percent, maybe a touch, maybe a pick.  He is a game manager, no one is hoping for big games out of the kid.  Just don't lose it. 

People expect wins out of Leinart and Young.  The expectations are a league higher. 

Next year, if Gruden is still the coach which I assume he will be, he will have a deeper quintet of QBs to handle.  And a deeper roster of defense to let Kiff reestablish his prowess.  I have a feeling if the Bucs had a #1 ranked defense, Grads would be good.  But since he doesn't, he is an afterthought.

[Boid Fink]

Oh brother... [banghead]

I agree.

But bring some fiber to the argument.  It isn't so obvious as to what you are banging your head on. 

We are ALL tired about this argument, but it will rage until something nice happens.  I just don't see it.  I see T.O.P. increasing, and that is nice for the defense, but I don't see the points being put on the board.  Rook or not, it is his job to get it done.

[BUCFAN4LIFE]

So Boid when the kid posted a 104 and 107 rating this year-- you didn't say to yourself damn this kid looks pretty good. You didn't say damn that was a nice read and throw to win the Cinci game.

I mean not even Leinart or Young have put up ratings in one game that high. And sure Leinart looks good throwing the ball all over the field to a damn good set of WR's and for all his 400 yards of passing his 2 picks and last pick especially cost them the game-- funny thing was Dwight Smith picked both of them. Young looked very good today-- he showed a flash for sure.

The point is they are all rookies-- bashing them is pointless-- this is what rookies do-- they show flashes and then show complete ineptitude.

[karen anderson]

Doesn't your qb rating go up the fewer passes you throw in relation to how  many are caught?  In other words if you throw 5 & all are caught don't you have a perfect rating?  When maybe you didn'r see a lot of passes open & so didn't throw. This doesn't really make you a great qb, does it?

[Boid Fink]

So Boid when the kid posted a 104 and 107 rating this year-- you didn't say to yourself damn this kid looks pretty good. You didn't say damn that was a nice read and throw to win the Cinci game.

I mean not even Leinart or Young have put up ratings in one game that high. And sure Leinart looks good throwing the ball all over the field to a damn good set of WR's and for all his 400 yards of passing his 2 picks and last pick especially cost them the game-- funny thing was Dwight Smith picked both of them. Young looked very good today-- he showed a flash for sure.

The point is they are all rookies-- bashing them is pointless-- this is what rookies do-- they show flashes and then show complete ineptitude.

Look man, I am not a Grads basher.  I am a Grads realist.  Post all the ratings, if you post just two.  He has looked pitiful in other games, and the plays were there to be had.  I have said HE IS A NICE GAME MANAGER A GREAT BACKUP TYPE PLEASE LEARN TO READ.  But Grads is not the Lombardi bringer of Tampa, I am willing to bet a great sum on that one.  HE IS NOT A TROPHY WINNER.  SORRY.

That is my opinion on the matter.  He has been the O MVP this year on a team that is sending exactly ZERO players to Hawaii this year.  He is SIMPLY NOT A QB THAT IS GOING TO WIN THE SUPERBOWL, NOR IS HE GOING TO LEAD THE BUCS TO ANY DIVISION BANNERS.  Not with the way the Bucs are nowadays.  If they had the defense of old, even the defense of STANDARD, then maybe he could get them there.  But he has to be able to put up 17 a game.  As of now, the offense SUCKS.  And he is at the helm.  How about the games he posted in the 40's?  The 60's?

[Boid Fink]

Let us not forget, Grads has NINE, yes 9 fumbles, and 6 picks.  He is still a turnover machine, no matter what you guys say.

And it makes me want to rip my heart out, but Grads is not it. Period.

[ufojoe]

By the way, because I will enjoy watching Bruce and Co. the rest of the year, doesn't mean
I wouldn't be excited if we somehow landed a quality veteran QB to play here. I don't
mope around and say, "Oh man, I wish we had this or that."

I cant control who we get or who plays so I watch the games (since 1988) and enjoy them
no matter what. Losses hurt. But this is football and not life or death.

I happen to trust Gruden's opinion of QBs and Hackett's (and Gru's) ability to teach a
young QB how to be an NFL caliber QB. Hope Grads can get the job done. Don't know
if he can. But I'll support him if he is in there and not whine about him every day on
this board. If he was a vet, that would be a different story.

[karen anderson]

Doesn't your qb rating go up the fewer passes you throw in relation to how many are caught? In other words if you throw 5 & all are caught don't you have a perfect rating? When maybe you didn'r see a lot of passes open & so didn't throw. This doesn't really make you a great qb, does it?

   I'd appreciate if any of you guys know the answer to this--it would explain qb ratings somewhat. Or are you just ignoring me?

[Boid Fink]

By the way, because I will enjoy watching Bruce and Co. the rest of the year, doesn't mean
I wouldn't be excited if we somehow landed a quality veteran QB to play here. I don't
mope around and say, "Oh man, I wish we had this or that."

I cant control who we get or who plays so I watch the games (since 1988) and enjoy them
no matter what. Losses hurt. But this is football and not life or death.

I happen to trust Gruden's opinion of QBs and Hackett's (and Gru's) ability to teach a
young QB how to be an NFL caliber QB. Hope Grads can get the job done. Don't know
if he can. But I'll support him if he is in there and not whine about him every day on
this board. If he was a vet, that would be a different story.

Well, that is the million dollar question right now.
I love Gruden, and want him to stay.  But does he have the offenive mind by himself to get the QB to become a better QB?  No Gannon comments.  That is like comparing satin to 1-ply.

[caradoc]

I'm not completely sold on grads, but he's been pretty good IMO.  Yes, he's managing games.  Every QB has to do that to win, and not all of them can, that's why big arms flame out, cuz they can't get that part down.
I think Grads is very difficult to judge right now.  He has nothing like the polish that Leinart has.  But he didn't come from the elite level that Leinart did.  There's a difference in the coaching that college players get vs. NFL.  Most college QBs come out a bit rough on the mechanics.  And there is also a difference between the coaching at USC and Toledo.  The guy is getting a crash course in how to run an offense, so he isn't getting the coaching he needs on his mechanics.  That's not to say he's not getting ANY, but he's been thrown into the fire and everything is focused on gameday.  We won't know what Grads will really look like until he has a full offseason with pro coaches, and the time to focus on the mechanics.  At this point, yeah, you can see he's never gonna have Chris' arm.  But it's too early to say he can't make all the throws, because he's a very raw prospect.  He wasn't supposed to be playing right now, he was supposed to sit, learn, and get polished.  He's also getting a massive amount of throws in practice supposedly, so that may affect his arm too.  The fact that he has such a good grasp, and is playing as well as he is (again, for a rookie), is a credit to him.

[BuccoJD]

she has this fetish, she thinks this is some type of war....I guess she loves seeing people argue and her being on the less populated side so if somehow that comes out to be the 'correct' side she can act like a big whig who has great vision...

I know, believe me, she's very transparent. However, I'm actually starting to find her obsession a little bit creepy.

this board is up sh1t creek and posters like Karen are a large part of the problem. When my subscription is up in a couple of months I am quitting the site.

Damn some of you guys take this stuff personally...

So I guess MJS and Senor DRay are the main Bruce supporters around here, which is all good and well, but there are also the Simms supporters (I fall into that category), and finally you have the flip-floppers who change their opinion every week. This sets up the perfect group to have "somewhat" intellectual debates on who we think will fare better in the 07 season.
I love making points on how Simms has shown he can take this team to the playoffs, and I like hearing the rebuttle of how Grads is a rookie and all that other BS (just kidding guys). But no one should quit the board over something like this.

Hell our ony aternative is buccaneers.com which is the worst thing ever created.

[karen anderson]

BuccoJD---for some reason I've came to determine that they don't mind the debate so much, just mainly with me. For whatever reason. I guess it's better if  don't disagree or act like I care. Apparently active debate is encouraged, just not from me.