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#30 : January 30, 2008, 10:41:16 PM

Luke McCown is the Future.  You heard it here best.

Agree.

I'd be upset if they wasted another pick on a QB............everyone knows rookie QBs and JG don't mix. I think it's been proven he needs vets. So, the Bucs will continue to look for a FA QB to compete with McClown. JMHO.

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#31 : January 30, 2008, 11:27:35 PM

Woodson has a terribly slow release and will get picked a lot in the NFL. Flacco has really slow feet. Neither is a good fit for Grudens offense. If they don't go with Brohm in the first, I could see them taking Henne in the 2nd. He really impressed the scouts in the bowl game and then even more with the Sr. Bowl practices.

I hear that kind of thing said all the time. How mobile was Gannon in Gru's offense? What people say and what I see just don't seem the meld. How mobile was Brad? Maybe Gru likes mobile guys but to say you have to be able to rush for yards to work his offense, well that doesn't seem to jive with the facts. At least I don't remember Gannon being a rushing threat. ??

Brad, no.  Gannon however, was very mobile.  So much so that a few teams wanted to move him from QB early in his career.

He wasn't mobile when he got to Oaktown and Gru.  Check him out in the SB, you have the dvd.

Gannon could move around pretty well. In Gruden's offense you don't have to be Vick. Being able to buy time and gain some yards if they are there is what he wants. Gannon was capable of that and more.

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#32 : January 31, 2008, 11:03:58 AM

 
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I would understand it if Woodson were DRAFTED by Martz, but not in this scenario. Woodson goes to the SB in an attempt to showcase his talent. While I expect Martz to run his style of offense, tweaking his release (which was as slow as ever, if not slower, during the week) makes him change his game which can be very awkward at first. So you've got a guy who is going through this mechanical change, and it's all in front of as many scouts as you can cram into one place. Thats going to hurt his stock. If he doesn't, Martz will reprimand him in front of said scouts, which would likely hurt his stock.

Even if Woodson's release wasn't changed his stock was taking a nosedive as it was inevitable given his unorthodox, slow release was well known and would have been displayed.   I think we can stop making excuses for Woodson and trying to put the blame on everyone else.  Martz is there to find players that fit his system as he works for the 49ers not for McShay.  I would never expect a coach to bend over backwards to please a scout that is not even part of the organization they work for.    

If Andre's and Colts' arm strength is indeed better than what they showcased then they will have a chance to prove it at the combine.  

The one big flaw in this theory that the mechanics changes hurt the QB's is that Ainge didn't seem hurt by it.  He led the south squad to a victory with Martz calling the plays.  




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#33 : January 31, 2008, 08:24:48 AM

IMO Andre Woodson hurt his stock pretty bad wouldnt be surprised to see him in round 2

I've seen quite a few mock drafts that have the Bucs taking him with their first pick.

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#34 : January 31, 2008, 08:44:21 AM

Woodson has a terribly slow release and will get picked a lot in the NFL. Flacco has really slow feet. Neither is a good fit for Grudens offense. If they don't go with Brohm in the first, I could see them taking Henne in the 2nd. He really impressed the scouts in the bowl game and then even more with the Sr. Bowl practices.

Scratch the Henne part, and I'm completely on board with you here.

Martz system does work best considering he made Kurt Warner, Marc Bulger, Mike Furrey, etc into recongizable players in this league.

Martz is a very good offensive coordinator when it comes to squeezing out talent and maximizing it.  I would not expect collegiate players that have not been exposed to a pro offense like Martz to understand it.

I would understand it if Woodson were DRAFTED by Martz, but not in this scenario. Woodson goes to the SB in an attempt to showcase his talent. While I expect Martz to run his style of offense, tweaking his release (which was as slow as ever, if not slower, during the week) makes him change his game which can be very awkward at first. So you've got a guy who is going through this mechanical change, and it's all in front of as many scouts as you can cram into one place. Thats going to hurt his stock. If he doesn't, Martz will reprimand him in front of said scouts, which would likely hurt his stock.

I'm not sure if that is what happened, though it seems to be and that would be consistent with the ego-driven Martz that was showcased here in St. Louis and the one I heard all sorts of grumblings out of Detroit about. His system works, no one is doubting that.

Woodson has a terribly slow release and will get picked a lot in the NFL. Flacco has really slow feet. Neither is a good fit for Grudens offense. If they don't go with Brohm in the first, I could see them taking Henne in the 2nd. He really impressed the scouts in the bowl game and then even more with the Sr. Bowl practices.

I hear that kind of thing said all the time. How mobile was Gannon in Gru's offense?  What people say and what I see just don't seem the meld. How mobile was Brad?  Maybe Gru likes mobile guys but to say you have to be able to rush for yards to work his offense, well that doesn't seem to jive with the facts.  At least I don't remember Gannon being a rushing threat.  ??

As mentioned, Gannon was plenty mobile in Oakland. I agree with the Brad point though, as he was as successful in Gruden's system as anyone here and he couldn't move out of a phonebooth on the field. But it is something that Gruden has shown a tendency to look for.

Mainly, I agree with the point made about Flacco. Flacco didn't run an NFL-style offense, he ran it out of the shotgun, he's known for his big arm, and he's not mobile at all really. Thats a square peg for Gruden if ever I saw one.

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#35 : January 31, 2008, 09:59:50 AM


Gannon could move around pretty well. In Gruden's offense you don't have to be Vick. Being able to buy time and gain some yards if they are there is what he wants. Gannon was capable of that and more.

I make a HUGE distinction between buying time and rushing for positive yards.  The buying time aspect isn't about being real mobil it's more a pocket awareness then. QB's often only have to move a foot or two and that buys a lot more time. That seems to be the measure of any good QB. Pulling it down and rushing for yards it a whole different animal. Guys that are capable of that often fall into it as a trap and instead of continuing to look for the pass they pull it down and run too soon and too often.

The discussion seems to be about if Gru's offense needs a guy who can rush for yards. Bottom line if that's the case his offense is flawed and will never work long term in the NFL, he needs to take it to college were you can not only afford to but usually must replace you QB every two or three years.  Yes, Gannon had a 500 yard season, he never managed 300 in any other year and the years in Gru's offense where he had lower total rushing yards and lower average yards per rush tended to be the more productive years for the offense total yards and points wise.  Which says to me the offense if better off with a guy who won't try to rush for yard but will instead continue to look down field to complete a pass.  I think that makes it the same as every NFL offense in use.


DYK, we have a college football forum... http://www.pewterreport.com/forum/index.php?board=5.0

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#36 : January 31, 2008, 10:15:05 AM

IMO Andre Woodson hurt his stock pretty bad wouldnt be surprised to see him in round 2

I've seen quite a few mock drafts that have the Bucs taking him with their first pick.

Throw those mock drafts away and never look at another mock from that site or magazine.

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#37 : January 31, 2008, 10:45:00 AM

I already posted this in a different thread, but it seems more appropriate here

just commit to McCown already .... let the new qb coach work with him, and name him the starter next year, or when Garcia goes down with an injury .... this constant state of flux we are always in hampers qb development .... especially with the encyclopedia sized playbook that takes several years to learn .... Luke knows the playbook, knows the system, has the physical tools, and an arm that can reach the fast wide receivers that we should / need to go after

the Browns committed to Anderson this past year, and Anderson returned the trust with performance .... I don't remember Brady being particularly spectacular his first full year .... and look at the development of Eli .... and Garrard at Jacksonville .... and Romos first year .... successful teams commit to their qb's and build around them .... or so it seems

give Luke a year of starting every game, live and die with him, as the Giants did with Eli .... wait at least a year, or 2, until a better qb class comes out, then draft a qb, and only if necessary .... ok, maybe draft a qb this year, with the intention of grooming him as a backup, for when Garcia retires .... but don't make it a priority and spend all the $ on another unknown that will sit the bench for 3 years .... for gods sake Gruden, show some trust in your players, show some trust in your coaches to develop them, let's have some continuity and committment for a change .... please, no more marginal rookie qb's or aging vets  [banghead]

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#38 : January 31, 2008, 10:49:47 AM

Well I do like the idea of sticking with Garcia and McCown, but are you really saying you are happy with Gradkowski as our 3rd QB?

I would like to see 2 or 3 more QBs come in to camp hopefully one proven veteran. 

Continuity is important but we need to look ahead as well, Garcia has 2-3 years left.  If he can last that long.


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#39 : January 31, 2008, 03:20:29 PM

Quote
I would understand it if Woodson were DRAFTED by Martz, but not in this scenario. Woodson goes to the SB in an attempt to showcase his talent. While I expect Martz to run his style of offense, tweaking his release (which was as slow as ever, if not slower, during the week) makes him change his game which can be very awkward at first. So you've got a guy who is going through this mechanical change, and it's all in front of as many scouts as you can cram into one place. Thats going to hurt his stock. If he doesn't, Martz will reprimand him in front of said scouts, which would likely hurt his stock.

Even if Woodson's release wasn't changed his stock was taking a nosedive as it was inevitable given his unorthodox, slow release was well known and would have been displayed.   I think we can stop making excuses for Woodson and trying to put the blame on everyone else.  Martz is there to find players that fit his system as he works for the 49ers not for McShay.  I would never expect a coach to bend over backwards to please a scout that is not even part of the organization they work for.   

If Andre's and Colts' arm strength is indeed better than what they showcased then they will have a chance to prove it at the combine. 

The one big flaw in this theory that the mechanics changes hurt the QB's is that Ainge didn't seem hurt by it.  He led the south squad to a victory with Martz calling the plays. 





For all the crap they gave Woodson he was the most consistent QB for the south on gameday, he led them on two scoring drives for 10 pts. Not only that but Ainge hardly led the south down the field for the scoring drive, two very bad calls kept that drive alive. One phantom pass interference call and the other was an incomplete pass when Ainge was clearly sacked and the defender forced the fumble. The sack would have put the South in third and long and the clock would have continued to run when there was under a minute left. So let's not make Ainge out to be unaffected by Martz coaching because he looked like crap, even on that final drive!

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#40 : January 31, 2008, 09:37:39 PM

Even if Woodson's release wasn't changed his stock was taking a nosedive as it was inevitable given his unorthodox, slow release was well known and would have been displayed.   I think we can stop making excuses for Woodson and trying to put the blame on everyone else.  Martz is there to find players that fit his system as he works for the 49ers not for McShay.  I would never expect a coach to bend over backwards to please a scout that is not even part of the organization they work for.

The scouts knew about his release all year long, why would him showing it here make his stock nosedive? So a poor showing in practices, with the same release questions, wouldn't do anything for his stock? And again, his release was as slow as ever, and awkward. The guy looked like a different QB in season and in those practices. I'm not making any excuses for the guy, period. His slow release is one of the more well known negatives in the entire draft, and I'm not going to take anything away from that.

How is MARTZ bending over backwards by letting Woodson throw the ball how he has thrown it his entire college career (and for all we know, his entire football career)??? Did Gruden make every QB roll out of the pocket because thats what he liked, or made them memorize his dumb, overcomplicated names for plays? :D No, he's there to coach them and give them pointers in their all-star game, not see if they can change into the player HE wants for HIS system. If Martz needs a guard in SF, should he take a tackle he likes and put him inside?

If Andre's and Colts' arm strength is indeed better than what they showcased then they will have a chance to prove it at the combine. 

The one big flaw in this theory that the mechanics changes hurt the QB's is that Ainge didn't seem hurt by it.  He led the south squad to a victory with Martz calling the plays.

Even if he proves something at the Combine, the damage to his stock and likely teams souring on him there, is already done. I don't think I heard anything about Ainge's mechanics being changed, whats the story with that ADW?

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#41 : February 02, 2008, 12:08:25 AM

I like Woodson best of the supposed 1st round QBs and would love it if the Bucs drafted him.

Yikes. You and I clearly watch different games.
I'm not basing an evaluation of any QB off of the Senior Bowl game. Show me his tools and his real game film.

If someone showed you his tool...oh, never mind.

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#42 : February 02, 2008, 04:14:25 AM

For all the crap they gave Woodson he was the most consistent QB for the south on gameday, he led them on two scoring drives for 10 pts. Not only that but Ainge hardly led the south down the field for the scoring drive, two very bad calls kept that drive alive. One phantom pass interference call and the other was an incomplete pass when Ainge was clearly sacked and the defender forced the fumble. The sack would have put the South in third and long and the clock would have continued to run when there was under a minute left. So let's not make Ainge out to be unaffected by Martz coaching because he looked like crap, even on that final drive!

The week of practice is bigger than the game though.

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#43 : February 02, 2008, 09:48:31 AM


the Browns committed to Anderson this past year, and Anderson returned the trust with performance

I wouldn't really call starting Charlie Frye ahead of someone as "committing" to a player.  If anything, those two things should be reversed: Anderson performed, so the team committed to him during the season.  His rise was similiar to Brady's - just the starting QB came down with a different ailment, he sucked - and suggesting the team knew what they had all along when they chose to start another guy ahead of him is revisionist.  Hell, the guy ahead of him was so bad, they kicked him off the team after ONE GAME.  And the team couldn't tell Anderson beat him out in camp?

Luke McCown is the Future.  You heard it here best.

Agree.

I'd be upset if they wasted another pick on a QB............everyone knows rookie QBs and JG don't mix. I think it's been proven he needs vets. So, the Bucs will continue to look for a FA QB to compete with McClown. JMHO.

If Gruden can only work with vet QBs and can't develop young talent, why are we even bothering with McCown?  The guy was in the league for ONE YEAR before coming to the Bucs, and he played in all of five games.  I can't see this argument both ways: Either Gruden can take a young athletic guy like McCown (or a blue chip prospect with more ability and upside than McCown) and develop his other mental/experience issues to make him a starting QB in a few years, or he can't and needs to stick with "vet QBs" like Garcia, Johnson, and Gannon.



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#44 : February 02, 2008, 08:16:39 PM


the Browns committed to Anderson this past year, and Anderson returned the trust with performance

I wouldn't really call starting Charlie Frye ahead of someone as "committing" to a player.  If anything, those two things should be reversed: Anderson performed, so the team committed to him during the season.  His rise was similiar to Brady's - just the starting QB came down with a different ailment, he sucked - and suggesting the team knew what they had all along when they chose to start another guy ahead of him is revisionist.  Hell, the guy ahead of him was so bad, they kicked him off the team after ONE GAME.  And the team couldn't tell Anderson beat him out in camp?

Luke McCown is the Future.  You heard it here best.

Agree.

I'd be upset if they wasted another pick on a QB............everyone knows rookie QBs and JG don't mix. I think it's been proven he needs vets. So, the Bucs will continue to look for a FA QB to compete with McClown. JMHO.

If Gruden can only work with vet QBs and can't develop young talent, why are we even bothering with McCown?  The guy was in the league for ONE YEAR before coming to the Bucs, and he played in all of five games.  I can't see this argument both ways: Either Gruden can take a young athletic guy like McCown (or a blue chip prospect with more ability and upside than McCown) and develop his other mental/experience issues to make him a starting QB in a few years, or he can't and needs to stick with "vet QBs" like Garcia, Johnson, and Gannon.

McCown IS a vet and he wasn't brought in here to be a starter right off the bat anyway. Luke's now had four years in the NFL, three seasons to learn Gruden's system and I think he's really close to being there.

You waste a pick on a QB in this draft, and it's likely he's on the bench for at least two years IMO. This team needs to spend it's picks elsewhere. A QB, particularly on the first day, would be a luxury the Bucs just can't afford right now. This is especially true if they want to play in the Super Bowl in Tampa Bay.

Luke may not be a blue-chipper, he was an early 4th rounder, but he was the sixth QB drafted in a pretty darn good class behind the likes of Eli Manning, Philip Rivers, Ben Roethlisberger, J.P. Losman & Matt Schaub. How many of them are starters ? Plus, Luke's a good fit, unlike Simms, and was a much better prospect coming out of school.

Either you put the years in on the field like Garcia, an undrafted free agent, or like you said you develop one. Sure, he needs some polishing, but Luke's proven he can play in this system and is at least a viable #2 who has earned the right to compete to start.

Luke's shown enough to make me believe that he may have what it takes to start for this team. But of course, only time will tell.

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