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Boriqua

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: December 11, 2006, 09:28:04 AM

This team completely gives up as soon as they get behind, even by one point. That has nothing to do with draft picks, free agents or cap space. The Bucs need talent, we all know that, but, when they are out there on that field, the players they have are a bunch of front runners. I'm not asking to fire Gruden, I know he hasn't had the best out there, but when your team does not know what to do once they are down, then that falls on the entire coaching staff.

Yesterdays game was a perfect example. For 2 and a half quarters they are all over Atlanta, they are not scoring, but their moving the ball and the defense is holding. Then a fumble, touchdown and game is over. Why? Why do they go into a shell when they are down by one point? Don't tell me that Atlanta adjusted in half time, because, the Bucs were once again, moving the ball in the start of the 3rd quarter. Why does the defense allow a fullback to beat them up and down the field. Did anyone see that "fake" that Griffith put on Allen, that had to be one of the worst fakes I have ever seen, and Allen fell for it. Sad, just sad.

This is not all on Gruden, but he has definitely shown that he can't, or doesn't know how to turn this team around when they are down. Newsflash! Adversity will  hit you in the NFL, what are you going to do about it? And I don't want to hear about the schedule anymore, you can only bring up the schedule if you are having a winning record against it. If you keep using the "tough schedule" as an excuse, then that only proves that you can only win when you have an easy schedule. You play the schedule you are given. The schedule is given well before the season starts, so, prepare yourself for it!

panchovilla

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#1 : December 11, 2006, 08:08:47 AM

pancho you missed the whole point-- they were not Dungy's players-- they were on the roster when he got here. Therefore the team's core was built by the time Dungy arrived-- he was fortunate that it was. Other than those the only 2 to pan out were Kelly and Barber through all the high draft picks.

Also Brooks believed enough that he wanted to stay a Buc , so did Ronde. Thats why they both restructured and signed. They knew who the HC was and what he brought...Think that through

No, Brooks only restructed his contract so Ronde could get the money he deserved and wanted or he would have been gone. Brooks said this on his talk show. The bucs were not going to resign Ronde, just shows you how stupid they are.

My point is we got rid of all these guys that are still productive.

Dungy came in and he went to Sapp and said I'm going to build this defense around you and the rest was history. Gruden only sold them all off and forces Kiffin to use retreads and hasbeens and neverwills. That's my point. I do get your point.

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#2 : December 11, 2006, 09:15:13 AM

I'm not even going to delve into this about Grudens team that won the superbowl. Any fan with any where with all knows that Gruden added key guy to this offense that allowed us to win the super bowl...

Anyway, build his team with what? He has had 2 first round picks in his tenure here, how can you people not understand that he hasn't been able to build and he hasn't been able to reload because of salary cap hell??

He is the same guy that got us to the super bowl, he is a young coach, and these are bad times for Gruden. This is our first year in forever to be out of cap hell. We have lost 7 picks via trades that have killed our ability to add good players who can contribute. What you are witnessing right now is what has been forcast to happen for years and its finally caught up with us guys, damn....

I'm tired of hearing people crying about Gruden....We suck, we lack players, we are old on defense....

I don't think  Gruden is exempt from what has happened, and in fact I think he has made just bonehead moves such as coming into this season with Simms and Grads and being reluctant to play Rattay (for whatever reason). However I am indifferent to firing him. He is a young coach, a good coach and yes these are bad times but these times have been expected to hit us for years and its finally come full circle and it hurts. Now either some of you guys weren't around as fans when for years everyone was saying the cap is going to catch them, the defense is going to get old and so on and so on. I was hoping for a better offense as well to compensate for the aging defense, we missed the boat on some people and yeah that is grudens fault but everything he touches does not turn to gold.

There is zero injury excuse to be used. Fact is this, our defense that has been forcast for years to get over the hill, finally has gone over the hill. The inablity to reload due to salary cap issues and the lost draft picks has killed us! We have zero at Quarterback and the OL is shaky but is showcasing some young talent. I think we have to ride this thing out with gruden.

For christ sake last year he took at team that was 6-10 and made them division champs and a playoff birth with hardly anyhting. Some here are too quick to forget the past and panic. Cry if you want, whatever, i'm done with this goofy discussion on Gruden. Yeah he has made some mistakes, but the obvious fact for our demise is what I said in the previous paragraph...



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#3 : December 11, 2006, 05:48:07 AM

Why do we keep talking about Dungy?  But yes he hasn't built anything in Indy. He inherited the offense, and he has one of the worst run defenses in the league, and its the reason Indy won't go to the Superbowl once again.  A Tampa 2  is supposed to stop the run first and he's last.  And Gruden is at least trying to be the builder which is why the offense is full of what????

DRAFT PICKS!  Not free agents.   Draft picks.  The truth just doesn't fit the perception but so what that doesn't bother some people.   But eventually whatever you are trying to do as a coach has to start working or you will be out the door.  So Gruden has next year to show some results.   He doesn't need another Superbowl. He just has to show that the pieces are coming together 8-8 or 9-7 at minimum.


BUCFAN4LIFE

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#4 : December 11, 2006, 05:22:58 AM

Is it an apologist thread or a realist post?

We mortgaged for a SB and got it. Gruden has had little cap and picks. Look at other teams who mortgaged as well. SF, TN, Balt. look how long it has taken them to get back on track and only one of them you can say is back in Balt. The others are just on upswings.

The fact we won a division in the middle was pretty damn good.

But lets be honest. This is what happens when teams are mortgaged. Couple that with the fact the Bucs lost 2 great defensive coaches this season, lost their starting QB, have been riddled with injuries, have played the leagues toughest schedule, and have a rookie 6th rounder starting. I dont care who the coach is -- that is not a recipe for success in the least.

Now take an honest look at Gruden-- sure he bares a lot of responsibility in the losses- it is his team, or to be fair the hand he has been dealt. But look at what he has done as well. You say he cant build yet he took a 4-12 Raiders team to the #1 offense in 2 short years. In 9 years of coaching he has what 3 losing seasons now. But also has 4 division titles in 7 years, a winning playoff record, and a SB. Can't say that of too many active coaches. SB's are tough feats for sure... Afterall he is the last NFC HC to have one.

How can you say you were ready to see him return even if we lost out and now do a 180 with all the injuries in the past 3 weeks. Since when were any losses pretty. Sounds more like you have finally been sold on the media tirade. You cant say in the last three weeks you haven't seen the playcalling there to win games can you??? There has not been any execution and sadly Grads is not the answer I was hoping he would be. He has completely melted down. Gruden can give him the playcalls and where to look but the rookie has to look there-- he has not been making his reads worth a damn. And thats partly on Gruden as well for not coaching the execution but players have to be accountable as well. And I dont seee where the team has given up on him, so obviously at least the majority of them still believe in what they are doing, but the circumstances surrounding them suck.

Has the time come to part ways??? Thats up to the Glazers-- but I for one am willing to see what he can do with top picks and for the first time actually have some money to be a FA player. Short leash of one year.

One thing is for sure -- if he is fired there will be a line for his services.

You say Jons a closer and Dungy's a builder-- How did Gruden build a 4-12 Raider team up that crumbled as soon as his system was gone from Oakland. How is Dungy a great builder when in 5 years he still doesn't have a very good defense INDY. He was brought to Indy to build one and has not.

And since we are bringing up the two coaches if you thought the 1st Atlanta game was the record when they put 306 yards rushing on us, Dungy's defense just gave up 375 today. Even more ironic Booger started both those games.


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#5 : December 11, 2006, 04:52:05 AM

Jon's a closer; Dungy's a builder. We need a builder right now and ironically Indy needs a closer.
The time has come to part ways.

I totally disagree.   What did Dungy build?   He came here with Brooks, Sapp and Lynch already on the roster.  He had 2 first round picks his first season due to some great moves by the Wyche regime.  That team was built before he got here.   It just hadn't matured.   He hasn't built anything in Indy either, that was another team with young talent ready to explode.   

Gruden can build a team but he hasn't had any draft picks or salary cap room.   He's a better coach than Dungy in my opinion (he won the superbowl while Dungy couldn't).   Gruden's one of the best coaches in the NFL and to get rid of him would be foolish.

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#6 : December 11, 2006, 04:26:28 AM

The ultimate apologist thread. Three weeks ago, I was in Gruden's corner, ready to see him return even if we lost out. But this isn't just losing. This is crumbling. This is more than 11 quarters without a touchdown, in some cases against prevent defenses that are GIVING us the scores. This is falling to pieces once the first bad thing happens. I think Jon for all he has done, but this is unacceptable, one of the biggest one-year negative turnarounds in NFL history.
''Who else is better out there?'' is no reason to keep a coach for another year. That's affirmation by fear, not talent or faith. Since winning the Super Bowl, we are 26-36. I don't ask for perfection; I don't think most Bucs fans do. But 26-36? That's atrocious .... and that includes one season where a lot of breaks went our way! I have lost faith in his ability to motivate, lost faith in his input on decisions for our draft, for his playcalling, for his decision on who to play, etc. If he's working harder, he sure isn't working smarter.
Have the Bucs given up? Sadly, no. Why sadly? If this is our BEST, then how bad are we?
Multiple Super Bowls? You're kidding right? We have had only ONE winning season in the last four. Does anyone here feel confident we can even get back to last year's level, let alone a Super Bowl anytime soon?
Jon's a closer; Dungy's a builder. We need a builder right now and ironically Indy needs a closer.
The time has come to part ways.

In Verner We Trust

oregonbucfan

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#7 : December 11, 2006, 03:08:10 AM

another Gruden topic...


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#8 : December 11, 2006, 02:28:26 AM

Take some time to read the following words.  Then post and please let's use our brains. 


Jon Gruden, Bill Parcells, Joe Gibbs, Bill Cowher, Mike Shannahan, Bill Bellechick, Brian Billick, Mike Holmgren.  Pretty good crew of coaches, I would say.  What do they have in common?  They all are the only current Head Coaches to have won a Super Bowl.

Jon Gruden is a good head coach and I can't believe that we have fans, which on these buccaneer message boards, seems like the majority that want him fired.  He deserves blame for the way the team is playing, but there isn't a coach in the world that would have the Buccaneers even in the playoff hunt this year.

You lose Brian Kelly before the season begins.  Right there, you know your done.  The last time we lost Kelly, which was 2003, we got eaten alive with Tim Wansley getting burnt non stop.  Then this year you look at Juran Bolden's dreads more then any other defender. 

I'm not going to bring up the banged up defense aside from the Kelly injury.  The next key thing I'll go to is Chris Simms.  Gruden, the front office, and 100% of the buc fan base made a mistake about Chris Simms.  We all thought that because he rode a good running game and great defense to a divison title, that we would be set this year.

Well I'm sorry for all you Simms lovers out there, but he fell flat on his face this year with a whole off-season to prepare.  He was absolutely terrible.  And as I lost faith in Gradkowski, the same people that say that he regressed because opposing teams had video on him should look at Simms.  Ever come to think that they studied the video on him, which is why he was about as good as a Hellen Keller/Ray Charles staring contest this season.

It all starts with the QB position.  Now I'm not saying you need a Peyton Manning at QB, but you definetly need more then a 6th round ROOKIE there.  How could you expect Gruden and the team to rebound from an 0-3 start?  In his press conference, he said we need a STAR at that position.  I agree as it would be nice, but the fact of the matter is.....as bad as you may think Jake Plummer is....he would produce 10 times the amount Simms or Gradkowski can produce.  I mean just look at the success that Brian Griese had.  I would say Plummer is better then him and Griese was great for us.


The NFL is a crazy sport.  One year you can be Super Bowl Champs...the next you can be looking in from the outside, like the Steelers and our very own Bucs.  One year you can be 5-11, the next you can be 11-5.

I know most of you stopped reading as soon as you read that I was on Gruden's side, but seriously, name me somebody better then Gruden that would be available as the Bucs coach.

The Bucs need to spend their cap money and use 3/4 of the first day picks on Defense.  If they do this, along with get a vet QB, and not go in with grads or simms starting, then they will be back to competing.

But no...your right....it's Gruden's fault that the o line doesnt hold the block and Gradkowski fumbles and it's returned for a TD.  It's Gruden's fault that Cadillac has a case of the fumble-itis....It's Gruden's fault that Chris Simms is a little on the tap dancing side with Mike Shannahan's son.

Get over it.  Enjoy the possibilities....At least with Gruden..you know you have a chance to win a Super Bowl.  Hey the odds are with him at 4 out of the above 8 have won it multiple times.  But nah I guess your right...let's go with some unexperienced head coach and be the Packers, Browns, Texans, Rams, etc.

You know damn well with our LUCK....that we have no chance at knabbing a no-name coordinator like Mangini/Payton.  We are the Bucs, one of the most unluckiest teams in the NFL.



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#9 : December 11, 2006, 08:04:26 AM

pancho you missed the whole point-- they were not Dungy's players-- they were on the roster when he got here. Therefore the team's core was built by the time Dungy arrived-- he was fortunate that it was. Other than those the only 2 to pan out were Kelly and Barber through all the high draft picks.

Also Brooks believed enough that he wanted to stay a Buc , so did Ronde. Thats why they both restructured and signed. They knew who the HC was and what he brought...Think that through


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#10 : December 11, 2006, 07:29:56 AM

quit making excuses, and fire him already. 

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#11 : December 11, 2006, 07:25:22 AM

The ultimate apologist thread. Three weeks ago, I was in Gruden's corner, ready to see him return even if we lost out. But this isn't just losing. This is crumbling. This is more than 11 quarters without a touchdown, in some cases against prevent defenses that are GIVING us the scores. This is falling to pieces once the first bad thing happens. I think Jon for all he has done, but this is unacceptable, one of the biggest one-year negative turnarounds in NFL history.
''Who else is better out there?'' is no reason to keep a coach for another year. That's affirmation by fear, not talent or faith. Since winning the Super Bowl, we are 26-36. I don't ask for perfection; I don't think most Bucs fans do. But 26-36? That's atrocious .... and that includes one season where a lot of breaks went our way! I have lost faith in his ability to motivate, lost faith in his input on decisions for our draft, for his playcalling, for his decision on who to play, etc. If he's working harder, he sure isn't working smarter.
Have the Bucs given up? Sadly, no. Why sadly? If this is our BEST, then how bad are we?
Multiple Super Bowls? You're kidding right? We have had only ONE winning season in the last four. Does anyone here feel confident we can even get back to last year's level, let alone a Super Bowl anytime soon?
Jon's a closer; Dungy's a builder. We need a builder right now and ironically Indy needs a closer.
The time has come to part ways.

All I ask for is signs of improvement.  At this point the only sign of improvement I can point too is the two drives that led to field goals from this last game. Other than that it went downhill from there.

You are not alone JBF.  I was in Gruden's corner a few weeks ago but now he is making it hard to defend him with the way the offense keeps playing.


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#12 : December 11, 2006, 07:54:42 AM

Jon's a closer; Dungy's a builder. We need a builder right now and ironically Indy needs a closer.
The time has come to part ways.

I totally disagree. What did Dungy build? He came here with Brooks, Sapp and Lynch already on the roster. He had 2 first round picks his first season due to some great moves by the Wyche regime. That team was built before he got here. It just hadn't matured. He hasn't built anything in Indy either, that was another team with young talent ready to explode.

Gruden can build a team but he hasn't had any draft picks or salary cap room. He's a better coach than Dungy in my opinion (he won the superbowl while Dungy couldn't). Gruden's one of the best coaches in the NFL and to get rid of him would be foolish.

Those players are still playing. Sapp has 7 sacks this year and Lynch is a 2 time pro bowler post Buckos. Brooks would have been gone along with Ronde if it wasn't for Brooks restructuring his contract. Think that through dude. Take off the Gruden glasses.

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#13 : December 11, 2006, 07:36:04 AM

If Gruden is fired it will be because he conducted the Gradkowski experiment. 

I do not think that but it is possible.  But I like to think that Gruden is judged by his whole body of work here in Tampa.  The good and the bad. 

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#14 : December 11, 2006, 07:33:38 AM

If Gruden is fired it will be because he conducted the Gradkowski experiment.  While it looked ok at first (2-2 the first 4 games) it has now ended where just about everyone would have predicted it would when you start a 6th round rookie QB.

I understand why he thought he saw another potential Gannon but when you buck conventional wisdom so hard you better be right.  Rattay isn't good but he probably would have scraped together more wins by now than Bruce.  Experience matters a bunch when it comes to QB's.  Those wins would secure Gruden's job.

His only chance is to make the Glazers fantasize about offensive juggernauts and franchise Qb's.  Quinn or Brohm are the ticket.  He's got to sell them on that vision.  THat's why the Bucs will take a QB with the high pick.
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