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ryan24

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#150 : February 20, 2008, 04:44:32 PM

Different player, different system. Brady would look a whole lot like Brad Johnson in Gruden's O. Efficient and solid, but not the special player you see today.

Brady's got a better arm, quicker release and despite the fact that he's not all that fleet afoot himself, is more mobile and able to elude the rush than Brad was. It's actually pretty idiotic that we have to have posts defending Brady in any fashion. 

Happy and Peppy and Bursting with love.

ryan24

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#151 : February 20, 2008, 04:52:16 PM

His 88 QB rating in 2006. Simms was slightly less than that.

So let's pick out one guy's 2 games and another guys 3 games and decide this makes their careers.

In the two seasons when both were more or less the starters for their respective teams over a period of time...05 for Simms and 04 for Rattay their QB rating was similar.....not that this is the end all stat to judge QB's on. It's certainly not enough to declare one the better than the other nor that signing him to a relatively cap friendly contract was not wise at the time it was signed.  The Bucs clearly viewed Rattay as a choice of last resort as the remainder of the NFL did last year also.

Happy and Peppy and Bursting with love.

umguy1999

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#152 : February 20, 2008, 04:55:59 PM

I don't know how or why this became a comparasin between Brady and Simms, since I think only P Manning could be compared to Brady at this point. This season our QB had an advantage over the last few seasons simply because the O-line was better and Gruden allowed the shotgun to be used. We have not seen Simms take one snap from the shotgun in the NFL, that being said I think it was obvious that the shotgun is a weapon that you need in the NFL. Given those facts/opinions our offense was still not very good.
Simms doesn't fit this system and will never fit this system and in 2005 Gruden gave him a simple playbook and gave him max protection, then the following season he opened it up and Simms played terrible in the first 2 1/2 games, maybe he would have worked through it maybe not, but the thing that worries me is this season WE HAD the QB that fits this system, and have the personality that Gruden likes, and was the leader that Gruden likes, was mobile and an experianced vet...AND? What did we do with it? He will be 39 next season, do you think he is going to get better? Or his arm is going to get stronger? Is he going to learn something new, or get faster? Unless he gets on the Barry Bonds health plan then what we saw last season is as good as it gets with Garcia in the drivers seat, running a system whose time has passed, there were 2 NFC teams running the WCO, and they did nothing other than to get spanked. Grudens system has not worked since he lost Gannon (which is about the same player as Garcia with NFL height, and a good arm) and 2 HOF WR's, plus a healthy Garner which we never got, we got a similar version of Garner in Caddy, other than the whole can't block and can't catch thing. Oh and newsflash 6 years is a long time in the NFL and that is how long it has been since this system worked.
A great coach gets good results with the players he has and makes adjustments, Gruden likes to use a paint by numbers style where the picture is already drawn and he just wants to fill in the colors, it has proven not to work, and we have been putting everything on the defense, which somehow has changed from what it used to be, because Kiffin seems to understand how to adjust for the players he has.
Gruden is the coach and its his way or the highway, and that is fine but if you are happy to have all your eggs in the Garcia basket, and think McCown is the "future" and move on to other positions as if the QB question is answered, then you must think peace between Isreal and Iran is just a few Lowenbrau's and a Hawaian pork roast away from happening.

ryan24

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#153 : February 20, 2008, 05:05:48 PM

I don't know how or why this became a comparasin between Brady and Simms, since I think only P Manning could be compared to Brady at this point. This season our QB had an advantage over the last few seasons simply because the O-line was better and Gruden allowed the shotgun to be used. We have not seen Simms take one snap from the shotgun in the NFL, that being said I think it was obvious that the shotgun is a weapon that you need in the NFL. Given those facts/opinions our offense was still not very good.
Simms doesn't fit this system and will never fit this system and in 2005 Gruden gave him a simple playbook and gave him max protection, then the following season he opened it up and Simms played terrible in the first 2 1/2 games, maybe he would have worked through it maybe not, but the thing that worries me is this season WE HAD the QB that fits this system, and have the personality that Gruden likes, and was the leader that Gruden likes, was mobile and an experianced vet...AND? What did we do with it? He will be 39 next season, do you think he is going to get better? Or his arm is going to get stronger? Is he going to learn something new, or get faster? Unless he gets on the Barry Bonds health plan then what we saw last season is as good as it gets with Garcia in the drivers seat, running a system whose time has passed, there were 2 NFC teams running the WCO, and they did nothing other than to get spanked. Grudens system has not worked since he lost Gannon (which is about the same player as Garcia with NFL height, and a good arm) and 2 HOF WR's, plus a healthy Garner which we never got, we got a similar version of Garner in Caddy, other than the whole can't block and can't catch thing. Oh and newsflash 6 years is a long time in the NFL and that is how long it has been since this system worked.
A great coach gets good results with the players he has and makes adjustments, Gruden likes to use a paint by numbers style where the picture is already drawn and he just wants to fill in the colors, it has proven not to work, and we have been putting everything on the defense, which somehow has changed from what it used to be, because Kiffin seems to understand how to adjust for the players he has.
Gruden is the coach and its his way or the highway, and that is fine but if you are happy to have all your eggs in the Garcia basket, and think McCown is the "future" and move on to other positions as if the QB question is answered, then you must think peace between Isreal and Iran is just a few Lowenbrau's and a Hawaian pork roast away from happening.

I agree with a good deal of this but I think the Bucs are a little too pedestrian at the skill positions...IOW it's a talent issue.....to declare the offense incapable of working without HOFers.

I don't particularly like a true WCO mainly because it seems as if every play has to work in order for it to be successful.  Thus we end up with dink and dunking the ball up the field and the drive dying on the 20 or a 3 and out. I'd prefer an offense which moves the ball 7 or 8 yards at a time. Other than Hilliard finding some holes and Galloway over the top the Bucs don't have a lot to defend in terms of personnel. Clayton can't get open and when he does he has trouble hanging on to the ball. Stovall can't get off the line of scrimmage and then stands around too much when plays break down instead of searching for space. I really don't think these guys put in any other system would fare any better.

Happy and Peppy and Bursting with love.

RedAlert

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#154 : February 20, 2008, 05:55:55 PM

...A great coach gets good results with the players he has and makes adjustments, Gruden likes to use a paint by numbers style where the picture is already drawn and he just wants to fill in the colors, it has proven not to work..

I don't particularly like a true WCO mainly because it seems as if every play has to work in order for it to be successful. Thus we end up with dink and dunking the ball up the field and the drive dying on the 20 or a 3 and out...

Good observations. But I believe that repetiiton combined with moderate adjustments have proven to work in the truest form of the WCO.

The late, great Bill Walsh himself used to script the first 15-20 offensive plays of the game,  depending where you read it, and not make any adjustments until they were run. It didn't matter if the Niners were getting stopped (It also helped that they rarely were) and it allowed Walsh to easier identify the strengths and reactions of the defense he was facing that particular day. It was brilliant in it's concept in that it allowed him to define and dictate adjustments on his own terms.

I've often wondered why Gruden doesn't use the same philosophy, but he also doesn't have the luxury of the WCO being a new attack, not to mention Montana, Rice, Craig, that 9er OL  ..or Walsh's patience.



Boid Fink

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#155 : February 21, 2008, 12:13:40 AM

You'd be suprised what a HoF QB can do for a team with little talent. Look at Montana with KC.

Yep, led them to a 11-5 record and a two playoff wins in 1993. One more than Steve DeBerg did in 1991. Even Dave Kreig led them in the playoffs in 1992 with a 10-6 record. Those Chiefs weren't as downtrodden as the 06 Bucs..



Dave Krieg had teeny weeny hands too...

Just saying.

Brady on the BUcs in 06 means Brady gets slaughtered.  End of this debate.

The BUcs have next to nothing to be feared on the offensive side of the ball.  They are vanilla, they are in need of jukers, and speedsters.  Grudens coaching helps bring some semblance of respectability to the outcomes, but they need help desperately.

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