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mjs020294

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#15 : November 29, 2006, 11:21:14 AM

PLUS Simms has had only 19 games of live action, and that is a different thing than scrimmages are.  Grads has had 10 games to his credit already, despite it being his rookie year.

Grads has played 8 games Boid.   ;)  Simms has played about 16 and had four years in the system.


Boid Fink

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#16 : November 29, 2006, 11:23:22 AM

PLUS Simms has had only 19 games of live action, and that is a different thing than scrimmages are.  Grads has had 10 games to his credit already, despite it being his rookie year.

Grads has played 8 games Boid.   ;)  Simms has played about 16 and had four years in the system.

He has STARTED 8 games, but he has played in 10.

Simms has played in 19 games.


mjs020294

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#17 : November 29, 2006, 11:24:48 AM

PLUS Simms has had only 19 games of live action, and that is a different thing than scrimmages are.  Grads has had 10 games to his credit already, despite it being his rookie year.

Grads has played 8 games Boid.   ;)  Simms has played about 16 and had four years in the system.

He has STARTED 8 games, but he has played in 10.

Simms has played in 19 games.


lets stick to games started, the other stat is ridiculous.


Boid Fink

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#18 : November 29, 2006, 11:27:09 AM

Okay then, SImms has 15 games started...

And Grads has 8 already.


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#19 : November 29, 2006, 11:49:18 AM

My observation is quite a number of Grads 'incompletions' is when he is more throwing the ball away than attempting to hit a receiver. Yea it is the direction of a receiver but it is also in the direction of a defender, so rather risk an interception or a grounding penalty he is putting it in a position where neither payer can get it, hence the low and short passes. Not all of them I grant you, but that has been my thought for quite a few of them.

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#20 : November 29, 2006, 01:40:04 PM

JMHO but the learning curve of both Simms and Grads are still a work in progress.  You really can tell how good a QB is going to be after the NFL defenses have a year of analysis to "game plan" them.  Take a QB like Michael Vick...  and his current problems..
Better yet look at Ben Roth.. at Pitt.  How about lil Manning?  Defenses appear to have figured them out.

Simms was having problems I believe this season due to a "book" being developed on his weaknesses by opposing D Coord.  The next stage will be critical for Simms as he needs to overcome those weaknesses.

As for Gradkowski, I think it is totally premature to judge what he will turn into at this time.  Personally, I like what I am seeing and he seems to have a "Field sense" that can't be taught.  You either have it or you don't. Would like to see him improve his touch on the long balls. (seems like a timing thing)

mjs020294

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#21 : November 29, 2006, 01:41:08 PM

JMHO but the learning curve of both Simms and Grads are still a work in progress. 

AMEN......and any Buccs fan with any sense would see this and hope they BOTH improve.


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#22 : November 29, 2006, 01:42:50 PM

Just a question, when Grads is pressured in the pocket on a called screen play or when his dump off is to the RB near the line, and instead of throwing it to him for a completion and loss of yardage or immediate tackle he throws it at their feet...is that counted as a poor throw or something else?
Not sure, but given the fact that it is an opportunity missed to gain something, it should be counted as a poor throw.

Or a good choice to throw it away


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#23 : November 29, 2006, 02:14:54 PM

Just a question, when Grads is pressured in the pocket on a called screen play or when his dump off is to the RB near the line, and instead of throwing it to him for a completion and loss of yardage or immediate tackle he throws it at their feet...is that counted as a poor throw or something else?

I am told it is counted as a poor throw. Poor throws are considered those passes "that are in the vacinity of an intended receiver but not placed so as to be catchable".

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#24 : November 29, 2006, 09:17:18 PM

I thought Simms played well last year...My concern is that teams figured him out and then exposed him in the preseason and the first 3 games...You can compare the batted ball stats from last year all you want...but what is shocking is how bad he played against Jacksonville (the last preseason game of any significance...he only played one series against Houston) and the first three games of the year...Guys, he had 20 of his nearly 100 passes either swatted (not counting tipped passes)or picked off...That is one out of every 5 passes was either batted down or intercepted...This is a serious issue that is not solved by throwing out numbers or asking for a new system...Simms numbers are mind-numbingly bad!  He got figured out and no stats, debate or numbers can change that.  Only Chris can...

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#25 : November 29, 2006, 10:00:37 PM

Chris may figure his stuff out.  Personally, I've noted before, he has given no indication that he will.  And while you and others may have felt he played well last year, Grads gives us some perspective on Chris' performance.  Chris came in and played similarly.  Chris didn't run the O better, had more mental issues, but had a much better deep ball.  In all it is fairly equal.  Under chris, our O was: 3&out,3&out,3&out,ZOMG!!BOMB TO JOEY!!lather rinse repeat.  Under Grads it's 3&out,3&out,3&out,WOW LONG DRIVE, repeat.
Both QB's have their weaknesses and strength(s).  Grads has the mental, the understanding, but lacks the mechanics and physical tools.  Simms the reverse; great physical tools, but the only thing he can do well is the deep ball.
People can compare the 2 but it's dumb to do so.  In his rookie year Gruden would have put a trained ape out before Chris, he was that bad.  If Grads had ANY kind of arm he would have started before Chris in game one, he was that far ahead in grasping the offense THIS year..yes, he understands it better right now than Chris does right now, after 4 years.

Last year Chris came in in his third year and lived off his physical tools.  This year Grads came in as a rookie and lives off his mental tools.  Last year we had the #1D.  This year we sucked from day 1.  Last year, we had a solid running game.  This year we sucked from day 1.  The difference in stats is minimal.  Simms did not look much better last year, if at all, than Grads does this year.  Yeah he threw some nice balls, but the number of dumb mistakes was far larger.  Can you honestly say that with last year's D and even half of last year's running game, that Grads would have had any worse of a record?  For every big bomb Simms threw, there is a long drive engineered by Grads, it evens out.

The only difference is that Grads is a rookie with a limited physical toolset, a bad defense, and a sub-par running game.  The fact that there is even a discussion about this should tell people that Simms was WAY overrated, and was carried by the D and Cadillac last year.

Chris has great tools.  His problem is the mind.  I hope he sticks around and gets the mental part, I really do.  Look at the balls he throws.  If he had the remotest clue what he was doing, he'd be rivalling Manning (the good one).  But he's not.  Not even close.  He's rivalling a weak-armed rookie QB right now, and he may be losing...

Grads has Great mental tools apparently.  If nothing else, there's no other explanation for a weak-armed rookie from toledo hanging with 1rd rooks statistically.  His arm is weak, but it seems to be just enough for the NFL.  He hasn't had the training that he should have gotten on that part, so we won't get an idea what his arm will look like going forward until next year.  Perhaps he'll be too weak to ever start.  But all he needs to do is cross a minimum threshold and his strengths can carry him.  He may be more Brees or Garcia than Manning or Palmer.  But we won't know this year.  He may be king, but it's too early to tell.  Unlike Leinart, he was never truly groomed for the NFL.  There is more room for improvement.  Maybe we should all wait until next year and see?

I hope Simms signs, that would be a great battle to watch...

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#26 : November 30, 2006, 01:23:37 AM

Are ther ANY threads on this board without stats & overdrawn out debates of Chris vs Bruce?  None of what we say matters diddly squat! Pretty sure Gruden & Allen are not waiting for our decision--which of course there isn't one.

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#27 : November 30, 2006, 02:35:35 AM

Let's see...

When Grads was overthrowing his receivers deep, where were the cries of a weak arm?

He's a rookie. Missed throws are meaningless at this point. For the 1000th time. Does he
get a pass because he's a rook? Yes! That will change as time goes on. At the very least,
(since it usually takes rookies a few years to show their stuff) he gets the rest of the
season to show some improvement.

cheveliar

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#28 : November 30, 2006, 07:54:34 AM

Are ther ANY threads on this board without stats & overdrawn out debates of Chris vs Bruce? None of what we say matters diddly squat! Pretty sure Gruden & Allen are not waiting for our decision--which of course there isn't one.

They tend not to take the advice of us emotional weirdo's...

Without Carl Nix it feels like our running game just took a death blow to the face!


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#29 : November 30, 2006, 03:02:26 PM

Fancy this: Leinart is the franchise QB for sure, no matter what. They will not draft another QB, nor is there any doubt as to his place on the roster either this year, or next. And watching Vince Young play last week, reminded me that this kid is a gamer, and can make things happen. His ability to run (Mobility at it's very finest), and his arm looked good. His leadership is a league better than GRads is, and ever will be. Point is, you are right, it is nopt fair to compare Grads to Young or Leinart, but they are being asked to do a HELL OF A LOT MORE than Grads is. His YPA is the lowest in the league, and that tells you the type of throws he is making. They are not on the run, they are not all over the field...they are generally short passes that are errant, and THAT is the thing that needs to be looked at right now. If Simms accepted that offer, it speaks volumes about what Gruden really thinks, if you ask me...

I seriously love some of the slanted views you've shown about Grad. I have this feeling that you hate this kid and have no idea why so you're just making stuff up.

You say Matt Lienhart is being asked to do more? Why do you say that? He looks better statistically because he's got a receiving core that makes 31 teams in the NFL drool. But ok, I can give you Matt Lienhart, even though this kid was already much more prepped to be a starter in the NFL and has the least upside, not to mention having Fitz AND Boldin.

Now Vince young. You say he's being asked to do more than Gradkowski? I call a steaming pile of bull**CENSORED** on that notion. Someone below you says "well, look at all of Grad's talent". Vince Young has behind him the leading rushing attack in the NFL over the last 5 weeks and facing an easier schedule. Vince Young is being asked to do a LOT less than Grad is. Have you seen this kid's offensive scheme? He's being asked to primarily hand the ball off, or make 1, maybe 2 reads and scramble if there's nothing. He's thrown over 25 passes 3 times including last week. In those games, he's completed 53% of his passes for 4 TD's vs. 6 ints and 4 fumbles. you realize that this kid has the same number of turnovers in those games that Grad's had all season? And Young actually takes a lot more sacks than Gradkowski does, even though he's much more physically gifted. Realize one thing. Vince Young had played 1 good QUARTER this entire season. Thats it - last week he looked meager until the 4th. Now, 1 fricking quarter and you say he's a "baller" ? Before the 4th qtr in the Giants game - when everyone on the G-men decided to go home - this kid had completed less than 45% of his passes for 6 TD's vs. 8 ints and 7 fumbles with a QB rating of under 55 - despite having a very good running game. But this is the kid that you claim is such a baller? And don't tell me talent. He's got a much better running game because of a better line and better scheme. Bennett is a big and under-rated target and David Givens is decent at #2 - not great but he's alright.

Now, back to Gradkowski. Let's see, Hackett and Gruden have both come out and said that Bruce's arm is not weak (you can see this because he DRILLS the ball within 20 yards). Its more a function of his mechanics. GEE, a ROOKIE Qb having bad mechanics - THAT one's unheard of.

Boid, you are actually criticising this kid for throwing the ball away under the pressure he's seeing. Have you seen the games man? He has virtually no time in the pocket and its amazing he's taken as few sacks as he has and is a true testament to his mobility and more importantly, pocket presence. Thsi kid has impecable pocket presence for a rookie. If you notice, his fumbles occur as he's moving away from pressure, not from direct hits. Which means that he's feeling the pocket pressure and is able to move away from it. Every other QB we had since Brad Johnson would have taken twice as many sacks by now.

I've personally seen enough from this kid to suggest that he will be our franchise QB for the next 10 years. I don't think Chris Simms has anywhere near the potential Bruce does in our system. Chris Simms had one good game last year when he was really asked to throw the ball. Grad's had 2 or 3 easy. Simms doesn't look as confident in the pocket, he's got far worse mechanics for a 27-year old 4 year veteran, he's not as mobile, doesn't have the leadership look that Bruce does, and I don't think he throws the football within 30 yards as well. The only things Simms has is height (which he doesn't use well), hand size and the ability to throw bombs.
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