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Biggs3535

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: February 22, 2008, 06:02:19 PM

Well I don't know where you draw the line between talent and scheme. Is/was Brooks a great player?

Derrick Brooks is a Hall of Famer.  Is Richard Seymore?  Maybe is some Pat's fan's minds...

That's a good way to differentiate very good and great.



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#1 : February 22, 2008, 05:53:13 PM

Well I don't know where you draw the line between talent and scheme. Is/was Brooks a great player?

FRG is the most logical poster on this board.  You guys just don\'t like where the logical conclusions take you.

Biggs3535

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#2 : February 22, 2008, 05:42:42 PM

2. It's true the Pats do not draft too many singularly great players. But they draft players who fit their system perfectly. Is there anything wrong with that?  Can you argue with the results? How many teams have better d-lines and secondaries? By the way Richard Seymour has made 5 pro bowls in 7 years.  If that is not the definition of great I don't know what is. 

I was arguing your comment that the Patriots drafted better than the Bucs...nobody is arguing their results.  But that is because of their schemes on offense and defense.  And maybe a little help from a camcorder.  ;)

Regarding Seymore, I call great being dominant.  I don't think Seymore is dominant.  He is highly successful in their defense and scheme, but so was Tully Banta-Cain.  Pro Bowls can be deceiving.



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#3 : February 22, 2008, 05:32:32 PM

1. You guys are really putting a lot of weight on one game. Yeah, Matt Light had a bad game, but Peyton Manning threw 14 INTs against the Chargers this season. Is he a bum? Simeon Rice had multiple games where he didn't get a single tackle. You really have to evaluate players over a season if not their careers.

2. It's true the Pats do not draft too many singularly great players. But they draft players who fit their system perfectly. Is there anything wrong with that? Can you argue with the results? How many teams have better d-lines and secondaries? By the way Richard Seymour has made 5 pro bowls in 7 years. If that is not the definition of great I don't know what is. The Chargers spent 1st round picks on Igor Olshansky and Luis Castillo. Neither will ever make the pro bowl but they're the types of players they need and they make the whole team work. Can you even say the Bucs have a system? As far as I can tell unless they have multiple hall of famers on both sides of the ball they're pretty ineffective.

3. I don't see why everyone on here is so averse to reviewing past decision and looking at how other successful people make decisions so that the decisions you make in the future can be better. I work in an industry where historical data is very important. We PAY people to search through old information to see how it can help us in the future. When I work on a new project, I look at old projects to see what I did then that can help me now. When I speak to third parties in my industry, I WANT to know how my competition does it. Why wouldn't you want to do the same thing if you are running a football team?

FRG is the most logical poster on this board.  You guys just don\'t like where the logical conclusions take you.

dbucfan

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#4 : February 22, 2008, 05:04:08 PM

Hmmm - no  I don't think they have a top 5 dline - crappy linebackers - good dbacks though

\"A Great Coach has to have a Patient Wife, A Loyal Dog, and a Great Quarterback. . . . but not necessarily in that order\" ~ Coach Bud Grant

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#5 : February 22, 2008, 05:05:27 PM

Did the DL or Secondary look Top 5 on Superbowl sunday?

In short no, and outside of Wilfork and Samuel who really looked like an elite athlete for the Pats defense in the championship game?

Biggs3535

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#6 : February 22, 2008, 05:06:26 PM

That's a big misconception about the Patriots.  They don't really draft all that well...except for offensive lineman.  The first three rounds of their drafts aren't that impressive.  They build their team through free agency and a helluva lucky find in Brady.
They don't have a top 5 d-line and secondary?

D-line - good, not great.  Seymore is a good player, not great.  Secondary - good, not great.  Samuel is great...he was a great pick in the 4th round.

A lot of their defensive success, on d-line, lb's, and secondary, comes from scheme.  Bellichick is a great defensive coach...but I know I don't have to tell you that.

Again, show me the players they have drafted that are great.



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#7 : February 22, 2008, 05:01:55 PM

That's a big misconception about the Patriots.  They don't really draft all that well...except for offensive lineman.  The first three rounds of their drafts aren't that impressive.  They build their team through free agency and a helluva lucky find in Brady.
They don't have a top 5 d-line and secondary?

FRG is the most logical poster on this board.  You guys just don\'t like where the logical conclusions take you.

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#8 : February 22, 2008, 04:59:46 PM

Why is that worth noting - the buccs spent some high picks to get quality - and NE didn't have to - we all knew that FRG - hell if for no other reason than you post it 2-3 times a week.

lmao. Good point, dbuc. ;)
Well, the Patriots are laughing their a$$es off about what they did with the picks they didn't spend on offensive linemen and the great players they got instead.
 

Well that is great - will get their minds off of all that illegal taping crap.

Really FRG - who cares - the buccs couldn't get it done like the almighty PATs, point made - and driven into the ground repeatedly.  It is okay.   The buccs oline is getting better - and i hate they have to force feed high picks to Muir to get it done - but getting it done they are. 

\"A Great Coach has to have a Patient Wife, A Loyal Dog, and a Great Quarterback. . . . but not necessarily in that order\" ~ Coach Bud Grant

Biggs3535

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#9 : February 22, 2008, 05:00:40 PM

Why is that worth noting - the buccs spent some high picks to get quality - and NE didn't have to - we all knew that FRG - hell if for no other reason than you post it 2-3 times a week.

lmao.  Good point, dbuc.  ;)
Well, the Patriots are laughing their a$$es off about what they did with the picks they didn't spend on offensive linemen and the great players they got instead.

What great players are you referring to in the first few rounds?  I don't see a whole lot of them.

That's a big misconception about the Patriots.  They don't really draft all that well...except for offensive lineman.  The first three rounds of their drafts aren't that impressive.  They build their team through free agency and a helluva lucky find in Brady.

And, like dbuc said, you do beat the Pat's drum quite often around here.  It wears on some...



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#10 : February 22, 2008, 04:53:36 PM

Why is that worth noting - the buccs spent some high picks to get quality - and NE didn't have to - we all knew that FRG - hell if for no other reason than you post it 2-3 times a week.

lmao.  Good point, dbuc.  ;)
Well, the Patriots are laughing their a$$es off about what they did with the picks they didn't spend on offensive linemen and the great players they got instead.

In fairness, the team nominally has a first round pick starting at LT.  If he can actually finish a season, for a change.
I am aware, but yuc's post was mostly about Penn. Also, while Petitgout was a 1st round pick, he got virtually no play in free agency and the Giants replaced him with a former 5th round guard and experienced no drop off. It's kind of like saying the Bucs dedicated 1st round picks to the d-line with Kevin Carter, Chris Hovan, and Ryan Sims.

FRG is the most logical poster on this board.  You guys just don\'t like where the logical conclusions take you.

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#11 : February 22, 2008, 04:49:30 PM

It's worth noting because in today's NFL you only have so many resources to obtain premium players. The teams that are able to find more quality players in unlikely places are going to have the most success. These quality no name players often play positions like guard, right tackle, 2nd or 3rd linebacker, or safety. The reason being there are a lot of 300 lb players who can push the guy immediately in front of them and there are a lot of players 230-240 lbs who can make tackles. There aren't a lot of 300 lb players who can move their feet like ballerinas, there aren't a lot of players 250-275 lbs who can rush the passer, and there aren't a lot of players 5' 10 - 6' 0" who can run stride for stride with elite receivers. The Bucs have been continually spending all their good resources on the former and not much on the latter. And I'm not convinced they've even gotten much quality with a lot of those picks.

Regarding how the Bucs and Pats both fared against the Giants, that is true, but the Bucs fared like that against EVERY playoff team they saw.

FRG is the most logical poster on this board.  You guys just don\'t like where the logical conclusions take you.

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#12 : February 22, 2008, 03:40:10 PM

Greats team start with great offensive lines. A big, if under appreciated, part of New England's success this season stemmed from their remarkable offensive line. They have 5 Pro Bowl caliber starters, all of whom they developed, while also having key backups that could potentially start for other teams. I think we've all seen what having that kind of protection up front can do for you. New England just might have the best offensive line of all time. Most likely none will end up in the Hall of Fame but on the field those 5 come together into one unbreakable wall.

Tampa has begun to assemble their own bunch of pillars upon which to build their offense. Their diligence may soon pay off. In 2005 the Bucs spent a 4th round pick (107th overall) on Wisconsin guard Dan Buenning. In 2006 they drafted Davin Joseph in the 1st round (23rd overall) and Jeremy Trueblood in the 2nd round (59th overall) while signing Utah State OT Donald Penn as a rookie free agent. In 2007 Tampa acquired another guard, Aaron Sears, in the 2nd round (35th overall). Joseph, Trueblood and Sears started all 16 games at RT, RG and LG while Penn started 12 games at LT. They have a combined 7 years of experience and average 24 years of age. The potential for these young men to play together for a long time is rather significant, leaving the future of the Buccaneers looking bright despite their current lack of young talent at the skill positions. While Tampa, much like New England, seems to have a strong eye for drafting offensive lineman, they do not, however, seem to be able to draft and develop skill position talent with the same efficiency, quite unlike their Boston counterpart.

The youth and inexperience of Tampa's offensive line were partly to blame for the offensive woes during much of last season. Joseph, Trueblood and Sears are maulers with a mean streak who make their name run blocking. Tampa was most effective when riding Ernest Graham behind an effective run blocking offensive line and using play action passing to open up the field. The offense became bogged down by receivers who were unable to create plays after the catch, leading to a meager 18 passing touchdowns and when asked to drop back and throw, Jeff Garcia found himself harassed and hounded by pass rushers, at times seeming to be running for his life while waiting for someone to get open. He was sacked 19 times in 13 games and took some vicious hits leading him to be knocked out of two games and getting pampered over the final 3 weeks of the season.

Many factors have been discussed as being to blame for Tampa's stodgy offense, including a lack of credible position coaches, head coach John Gruden's inability to decide on an identity for the team and Gruden's insistence on calling plays while not hiring a true offensive coordinator. The inability of former 1st round picks Michael Clayton and Cadillac Williams to contribute has also stunted the growth of the offense. Despite their struggles during 2007, the young pieces along Tampa's offensive line have been baptized by fire and are now becoming young veterans who will comprise the core of Tampa's offense going forward.

Joseph has the most potential of the 4. The former Oklahoma star has started 28 of 29 games over his first two years in the league but he took a step backward during 2007 as he was plagued by inconsistency. When he is on, Joseph is a dominating run blocker who can wreak havoc at the second level. At times though, he was a liability against the blitz despite being the most athletic of the group.

In anchoring the starting right tackle position for 29 games over the last two seasons, Trueblood has teamed with Joseph to make Tampa's first two picks of 2006 a success. A Boston College product, Trueblood's top quality is his nasty demeanor. At 6'8" 320 lbs he has the size and strength to engulf defenders and pave highways for runningbacks. He is pretty good at getting his long arms inside defenders and can shut them down when does. Trueblood is not real athletic and doesn't look like a natural bender. He struggles against speed rushers but makes up for his deficiencies with strength and intangibles.

With the selection of Sears in the second round, Tampa showed that they were serious about rebuilding their offensive line. Sears had the expected rookie struggles throughout the year but continued to improve and started all 16 games. Another monster at 6'4" 320 lbs, Sears and Trueblood are a huge factor in Ernest Graham's surprising success.

The least herald of the group is Penn. The undrafted free agent took over for Luke Petitgout during Week 4 and never looked back. Penn played better football than was expected, showing quick feet and the athleticism to hold down the fort. Penn will get a crack at the job next year and more than likely he will be the starter for next season. He moves far better than Petitgout and is much younger, Penn affords Tampa the opportunity to draft and groom a franchise left tackle or wait and let him show if he can handle the position for a full 16 games. Regardless, Penn is still 24 and will improve.

This brings us to Buenning. Tampa seems set at 4 out 5 offensive line positions. The weak link is at center where veteran John Wade has been the man charged with keeping the team's young lineman focused. Wade has been credited as being the one who keeps everyone's heads in the game and calms down the huddle. The value he and Garcia bring to Tampa's young offense is invaluable. Where the problem is, Wade is old (33) and has never been very strong. He doesn't get a good push and struggles against bigger tackles. The free agent market is bare for centers and drafting someone is a distinct possibility. The answer may already lie in house though. Buenning may have been drafted as a guard but Tampa has been grooming him to be a versatile lineman in the Matt Lehr-mold. Lehr was a free agent addition from Atlanta before last season who can play both guard spots and center, though will most likely be looking for a new home this year. Buenning did not play in 2007 while recuperating from a knee injury sustained against Dallas in 2006. Despite that, Buenning is only 27 and has 23 starts in his career, including starting all 16 games as a rookie in 2005. He has been working on the finer points of the center position and would add even more size, 6'4" 320 lbs to be exact, to a huge offensive line.

The foundation for Tampa's continued success is already in place. Time will tell if Tampa's diligence will pay off in practice but the theory seems to be a winner. Every play, every snap, starts with the offensive line, the center is the first man to touch the ball and you begin building your team from the inside out. They may only have the ball for a split second, but the first men to touch the ball are generally the most important. With a sound offensive line in position, Tampa can begin worrying about finding a partner for Joey Galloway, a difference making tight end or maybe they can finally add the franchise QB this franchise has lacked for decades.

In Football, RESPECT is never given freely by your opponent. It must be TAKEN from them...VIOLENTLY

Great players cost a lot of money but help win games. High-priced players - a byproduct of poorly run front offices with bad scouting departments - only cost a lot of money.
"Our greatest glory consists not in never falling, but in rising every time we fall."
Oliver Goldsmith



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#13 : February 22, 2008, 03:58:55 PM

good post

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#14 : February 22, 2008, 04:00:59 PM

Good read but worth noting when comparing Tampa's line to New England:

Patriots
LT - 2nd round
LG - 1st round (pick #32)
C - 5th round
RG: undrafted
RT: 3rd round

Bucs
LT - undrafted
LG - 2nd round
C - free agent
RG: 1st round
RT: 2nd round

Matt Light, playing the most important position on the line, is the second highest drafted lineman on the team. Penn, is the lowest drafted Buccaneer lineman. The problem with the Bucs is most offensive lines make due with one spare part, and they are typically a guard or right tackle. The Bucs have already spent high picks on those positions. It's so rare you can make it work with the scrub at left tackle.

FRG is the most logical poster on this board.  You guys just don\'t like where the logical conclusions take you.
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