Welcome, Guest
Pewter Report  >>  Boards  >>  Pirate's Cove (Moderators: 3rd String Kicker, PRPatrol)  >>  Topic: Tom Cruise Was Right « previous next »
Page: 1 2 3 4 5 ... 11

escobar

******
Hall of Famer

Posts : 4130
Offline
#30 : February 27, 2008, 05:17:31 PM

still not a fact that placebo works the same as prozac. you're showing studies to support your claim and i have no doubt that if anyone else cared enough to look up studies to prove you wrong there would be just as many if not more.

meds work for some. would placebo work the same for them? maybe, maybe not.

Science shows BOTH ways.

You are probably right Krazy, but the question I ask is who has more to gain, those saying a placebo works just as well or those saying Prozac and all of the other drugs are the best option. Of course those saying a placebo works just as well have nothing to gain from saying that. Those backing drugs as the best solution have thier own profits to protect. Not everything is black and white, about money or not about money, but after reading everything I have I can't come to any other conclusion than when the amount of money someone makes is on the line you better be careful with what you say, ESPECIALLY in that industry.

I know it sounds like a conspiracy theory and crazy talk, but if you actually spent time researching this topic you would find many people that have absolutely nothing to gain refuting much of what is widely accepted in our society today, and you would also find many people that have A LOT of money to lose trying to convince people this same information is accurate. Society as a whole will never agree on one conclusion, but IMO more and more people are starting to realize the healthcare industry is not doing what it's supposed to be, and that's making people better. And I think the internet has played a huge roll in spreading information that the AMA and FDA and every other government agency with something to hide never had to worry about before.

The most basic example I can give as to why I believe profits are more important in this country than anything else is this: The FDA does not allow natural substances to be sold as a cure or treatment for any condition or disease because they say they haven't been tested enough and might be dangerous, yet at the same time they allow the production and sale of cigarettes, which EVERYONE knows are extremely harmful to your health and WILL cause disease and death. So the FDA expects people to back them and not question their authority even though they make it illegal for natural health practitioners to treat people with natural substances (that can't be patented, which is the key) for "safety" reasons, yet they allow the sale of a product that unquestionably kills people? Get the F out of here with that nonsense. Cigarettes are addicting (residual income) and damage your health (medical costs), THAT is why they are allowed to be sold. I really have to question the intelligence of anyone who backs the way healthcare is run in this country.

ufojoe

******
Hall of Famer

Posts : 28683
Offline
#31 : February 27, 2008, 05:27:17 PM

OK, one more post...

Cruise, in the Lauer interview, suggested exercise and vitamins could help some people just as well as anti-depressants. OK, no more Tom references.

Remember, this study looked at just four drugs. But they are the four most prescribed anti-depressants...

And it seems like the FDA needs to be looked at too because these missing studies were in their archives but wound up in a black hole. Only reason we know about them now is the FOIA.

FDA helping out the drug companies? Say it ain't so! :-)

Oh yeah, it turns out this is not the only study that suggests this. The NIMN funded another study that came to a similar conclusion about the effectiveness of certain anti-depressants.

And I'm surprised nobody has addressed the school shootings related to these drugs.

http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2008/02/27/earlyshow/health/main3881987.shtml

Antidepressants Useless In Many Cases?
Study: They Only Help Extremely Depressed People; Drug Cos. Cry Foul

Feb. 27, 2008

New evidence suggests that Prozac is not as effective when treating people with mild or moderate depression. Professionals suggest exercise and diet change would be as beneficial. Tracy Smith reports.

(CBS) Antidepressants may not be as effective as advertised.

A new British study suggests the drugs only help those who are severely depressed, and do little to help people suffering from mild depression, reports Early Show national correspondent Tracy Smith.

She points out that more than 100 million prescriptions for antidepressants are written each year in the United States.

The research looked at 47 clinical trials, including data never that had never been made public before. The word on the trials had been submitted to the Food and Drug Administration during the drug approval process, but hadn't been published in medical journals.

The study's lead author, Irving Kirsch, Ph.D. of the University of Hull, got the info from the FDA using the Freedom of Information Act.

"Most patients," Kirsch says, "can benefit as much from other forms of treatment, such as physical exercise and psychotherapy, as they can from antidepressant medication.

" ... Research into the efficacy of medications is funded by the pharmaceutical companies that are going to profit from them and, as a result, some of the data that are less favorable to the medications just aren't published."

Drug industry reaction came from companies that included Glaxo SmithKline, which makes the antidepressant Paxil. It says, "The authors' interpretation is incorrect, and is clearly at odds with the benefits of antidepressants routinely observed in actual clinical practice."

And Columbia University researcher Kelly Posner says the new study doesn't address one of depression's WORST consequences: "Since we've had antidepressants, the suicide rate has dropped, across the world, reversing a trend prior to their introduction."

Posner says antidepressants have improved the lives of millions of people.


But, on The Early Show Wednesday, Charles Barber, author of the book "Comfortably Numb: How Psychiatry Is Medicating a Nation" told co-anchor Harry Smith the new study is "in line with some other work by other people looking at the FDA database that shows more sobering results for the antidepressants. (A researcher in Washington state) looked at 52 studies done by the FDA and found that, in 48 percent, the results were no better than placebos of the antidepressants. And there's a ... study funded by the National Institute of Mental Health ... that showed that antidepressants worked very well for about a-third of people. This is people with serious clinical depression (but not as well for others).

Antidepressants, Barber says, are "absolutely" over-prescribed: "The drugs can be absolutely wonderful for severe depression, for moderate depression. The farther that you get along that continuum, to milder depression or even conditions of life problems," (the less effective they are)."


Barber added that fish oil may actually help relieve mild forms of depression.

To read an excerpt from "Comfortably Numb: How Psychiatry is Medicating a Nation,"

go here:

http://www.randomhouse.com/pantheon/catalog/display.pperl?isbn=9780375423994&view=excerpt


gatorgirl!

****
Starter

Posts : 343
Offline
#32 : February 27, 2008, 07:16:26 PM

Joe and Escobar who are you to tell people they shouldn't be on medication? Do you have a doctorate degree in mental health, psychology, psychiatry, anything?

Everybody knows that some disorders/diseases/conditions are there because the individual thinks that they are, and by taking drugs, placebo or real, they are magically cured. But there are also many individuals out there who can only live normal lives with the help of medication. Who are you to talk down to those people or tell them that they can fix it themselves?

Escobar, no offense, but anxiety isn't life threatening, it's not depression. Alot of people can cure their own anxiety by facing fears or getting help with a psychologist to figure out why that act causes them so much anxiety. Props to you for overcoming your anxiety. I can agree with you that too many people turn to medication to fix all their problems, but some problems need medical attention.

My mother had MS, and a side effect of that was depression. It was not depression because she couldn't walk, or couldn't keep up with her kids, or self pity for having a neurological disease. It was a chemical imbalance in her brain that kept her from achieving happiness at the same levels we consider being happy. She took antidepressants to help balance the hormones and they drastically changed her life. I know the exact periods in her life in which she tried to get off antidepressants because she hated the **CENSORED**tail of medicine she had to take each day, and was continually trying to minimize her medication...those periods were the absolute worst and affected her self image and personality as well as the entire family and household. S

Some people medically need help to keep their bodies in their natural order. And you two have no business telling people what they should do in regards to their own body. It's their decision. My mom needed those medications to help her live a healthy life.

I can agree with you two that doctors prescribe medicine way to often. People are on antidepressants because they lost a loved one, they lost a job, went through a divorce, or any amount of other environmental factors. Yeah, they don't need to be on medication. But if it helps them feel better, let them do what they want.

ufojoe

******
Hall of Famer

Posts : 28683
Offline
#33 : February 27, 2008, 07:53:29 PM

Joe and Escobar who are you to tell people they shouldn't be on medication? Do you have a doctorate degree in mental health, psychology, psychiatry, anything?

I said that people shouldn't take Prozac (or one of the the other three) if a sugar pill works
just as well. That's common sense. But it's still only my opinion. Do you think some doctors,
after seeing this study, might have a similar opinion, or will they risk the side effects for
minimal benefits with the patients with slight to moderate depression?

I'm providing articles and information. People can make up their own minds. I thought people
would be appreciative of this thread. I guess not. I am amazed at some of the responses.

But there are also many individuals out there who can only live normal lives with the help
of medication. Who are you to talk down to those people or tell them that they can fix it
themselves?

You have now become one of the worst posters on this board. Show me where I said all of these
people can fix themselves. The data shows that the people with slight to moderate depression
(the majority of people who use those drugs) get just as much benefit from a placebo as they
do from one of those four drugs. The ones with severe problems DO benefit from those drugs.
Although, that may be placebo too. Not clear yet. That is what the meta-analysis suggests.
NOT me.

If anything, I'm talking down to the drug companies and FDA. Some of those people don't give
a crap about anything other than money.

Where am I talking down to people who use these drugs? Sorry, but you have major issues
with comprehending things if that's what you got from my posts. I have relatives and friends
who use these drugs and I don't talk down to them for it. But I'll certainly let them know
about this study and they can make their own decision. I already mentioned my niece.
Did you miss that?

but some problems need medical attention.

You got that, Esco? Not all problems can be solved with jumping jacks and Flintstone vitamins. 
Sometimes, doctors and drugs can actually do good. We were soooo wrong. How did we wind
up so stupid, Esco? How did you and I wind up thinking that all doctors and drugs are bad?

:-)

Some people medically need help to keep their bodies in their natural order. And you two have no business telling people what they should do in regards to their own body. It's their decision. My mom needed those medications to help her live a healthy life.

And I'm glad she had them. But, as the study suggests, there are other people out there who would have
benefited just as much by taking a sugar pill instead. But the key is they couldn't be told it was a
sugar pill. Otherwise, no placebo effect. The placebo effect has been known for a long time. But
this info. on these four drugs is new. And more studies and analysis will be done in an attempt
to replicate this one.

I can agree with you two that doctors prescribe medicine way to often. People are on antidepressants because they lost a loved one, they lost a job, went through a divorce, or any amount of other environmental factors. Yeah, they don't need to be on medication. But if it helps them feel better, let them do what they want.

They can do whatever they want. But I'm going to share this info. with as many people as
I know who take that stuff and they can decide for themselves. I share information. That's
what I do all the time.

I hope you don't run away and fail to post again. That's a pattern with you on some threads.
Somebody shows you to be wrong and you disappear from the thread. The Maher post
was one example. The fact that you thought he was an Atheist shows how much you
look into some things before putting a label on it or them.

escobar

******
Hall of Famer

Posts : 4130
Offline
#34 : February 27, 2008, 08:12:54 PM

Joe and Escobar who are you to tell people they shouldn't be on medication? Do you have a doctorate degree in mental health, psychology, psychiatry, anything?

Everybody knows that some disorders/diseases/conditions are there because the individual thinks that they are, and by taking drugs, placebo or real, they are magically cured. But there are also many individuals out there who can only live normal lives with the help of medication. Who are you to talk down to those people or tell them that they can fix it themselves?

Escobar, no offense, but anxiety isn't life threatening, it's not depression. Alot of people can cure their own anxiety by facing fears or getting help with a psychologist to figure out why that act causes them so much anxiety. Props to you for overcoming your anxiety. I can agree with you that too many people turn to medication to fix all their problems, but some problems need medical attention.

My mother had MS, and a side effect of that was depression. It was not depression because she couldn't walk, or couldn't keep up with her kids, or self pity for having a neurological disease. It was a chemical imbalance in her brain that kept her from achieving happiness at the same levels we consider being happy. She took antidepressants to help balance the hormones and they drastically changed her life. I know the exact periods in her life in which she tried to get off antidepressants because she hated the **CENSORED**tail of medicine she had to take each day, and was continually trying to minimize her medication...those periods were the absolute worst and affected her self image and personality as well as the entire family and household. S

Some people medically need help to keep their bodies in their natural order. And you two have no business telling people what they should do in regards to their own body. It's their decision. My mom needed those medications to help her live a healthy life.

I can agree with you two that doctors prescribe medicine way to often. People are on antidepressants because they lost a loved one, they lost a job, went through a divorce, or any amount of other environmental factors. Yeah, they don't need to be on medication. But if it helps them feel better, let them do what they want.

The irony in this post is hilarious. Do you realize that the entire problem with the healthcare industry today is that they give NO CHOICE to people with how to take care of their own body? You do realize that, right? If a person reads up on a natural remedy that has been tried and found effective in another country and they want try it out themselves here in America, well guess what? Tough luck. It's illegal here to prescribe anything natural to cure or treat any condition or disease. In order for you to prescribe any kind of treatment, that treatment has to first be approved as a drug by the FDA, and that takes millions of dollars up front due to the prescription drug fee act and a ton of required research. Which means it's virtually impossible for small time natural health practioners to make their way through the approval process with ideas and treatments of their own, and that's exactly how the system is designed.

So before you go blasting people for "telling people what they can and can't put in their body" , make sure you realize that that's EXACTLY what our current healthcare system does, it gives you no choice. And that happens to be my main problem with the system to begin with. You're right, if people want to take pills with severe and sometimes fatal side effects when they could just help themselves with a little bit of will power,  that's their business, but for those of us who have read enough about the garbage they sell as "treatments" these days and wish we had another option, we should be given that choice, and as it stands right now we don't have that. So I think you need to direct that accusation towards the real culprits which clearly happens to be our current healthcare system.

escobar

******
Hall of Famer

Posts : 4130
Offline
#35 : February 27, 2008, 08:26:13 PM

And about your paragraph on anxiety and how people can just go to a psychologist to work out there problems, I offer this, not a single person I know who suffers from anxiety has been told to visit a psychologist, they have ALL been given drugs to take. Some have been told to visit a psychologist AND take drugs, or just strictly take drugs, but not one of them was told to just go to a psychologist.

And you clearly know very little about anxiety disorders, you are talking about general anxiety, the type of anxiety everyone deals with. Anxiety disorders are much much different. People with anxiety disorders also suffer from depression with very few exceptions. We aren't talking about being anxious to go to the dentist here, it's much worse than that. If you experienced it for just one single day in your life you would change your opinion completely, i'm positive of that. And doctors know this, they know how it feels, and they prey on people who feel this way and shove drugs down their throat and tell them everything is going to be ok. Because they know that people who suffer from these things will do anything to start feeling normal again. I've been there, trust me.  I'm just glad I was smart enough to read up on this condition first before I listened to anything some greedy doctor had to say, or else I'm confident I'd be just as bad off now WITH prescription drugs as I used to be without them.

So while you are telling me that I"m just telling people what or what not to take, I'm really just telling people that I've been through it and I know it's possible to get through it without some drug some doctor is going to try to give you. Not a lot of doctors will tell you that, which happens to be the problem.

krazybuc

******
Hall of Famer

Posts : 8479
Offline
#36 : February 27, 2008, 08:44:58 PM

natural cures arent illegal. they just arent prescribed. just about every community has a natural herbal store that you can walk right into and talk to the guy behind the counter and find a natural "cure" for what ails ya. I've tried them on a few occasions and gotta tell ya for the most part they're junk.

this isnt about you all "caring" about people and "talking down to the govt agencies". It's more conspiracy mumbo jumbo government is bad jibberish.

everyone will most likely agree that drugs are over-prescribed. but i'm sure a lot of ppl will agree that a sugar pill wont fix your problems.

you two got pretty upset pretty quick when someone didnt agree with you that sugar pills and mind over matter are the cure-all.

Morgan

User is banned from postingMuted
*
Hall of Famer
******
Posts : 14658
Offline
#37 : February 27, 2008, 08:46:13 PM

ufojoe55 - for someone always complaining about NOT having access to health care insurance, you seem very critical of American health care.  Every week a new topic. Maybe you're better off not having access - the way doctors prescribe the wrong psych meds, the wrong cardiac meds, they cut off the wrong limbs, etc. etc.  You should consider yourself lucky/fortunate.

alldaway

*
Hall of Famer
******
Posts : 36754
Offline
#38 : February 27, 2008, 08:50:09 PM

Quote
Not really. He wasn't the one being a pompous prick

Actually Matt Lauer was baiting Cruise with that "interview" if we want to call it that so I suppose Lauer found the reaction he was seeking.

ufojoe

******
Hall of Famer

Posts : 28683
Offline
#39 : February 27, 2008, 08:51:05 PM

everyone will most likely agree that drugs are over-prescribed. but i'm sure a lot of ppl will agree that a sugar pill wont fix your problems.

you two got pretty upset pretty quick when someone didnt agree with you that sugar pills and mind over matter are the cure-all.

Like I said this study shows the placebo effect works just as well as the drug for people with slight
to moderate depression. Whether or not people agree with it is up to them. It's not the first study
to show how powerful the placebo effect can be and more studies will be done on these four drugs.

Cure all? Man, you're in competition with Gator Girl as worst poster of the day.

ufojoe

******
Hall of Famer

Posts : 28683
Offline
#40 : February 27, 2008, 08:52:52 PM

ufojoe55 - for someone always complaining about NOT having access to health care insurance, you seem very critical of American health care.  Every week a new topic. Maybe you're better off not having access - the way doctors prescribe the wrong psych meds, the wrong cardiac meds, they cut off the wrong limbs, etc. etc.  You should consider yourself lucky/fortunate.

Man, you're number three in the list of worst posters. If the doctors don't know about the studies, they
can'nt make educated decisions. It's not their fault! Go read the freaking JAMA article that you were
begging for. It's right in there.

The ignorance continues to amaze me.


krazybuc

******
Hall of Famer

Posts : 8479
Offline
#41 : February 27, 2008, 08:53:39 PM

Joe, you're hardly the one to be waving the "worst poster of the day" stick around.

For gods sake you started a thread bragging about Tom Cruise being right. Let that roll around in your head a little.


krazybuc

******
Hall of Famer

Posts : 8479
Offline
#42 : February 27, 2008, 08:54:38 PM

ufojoe55 - for someone always complaining about NOT having access to health care insurance, you seem very critical of American health care. Every week a new topic. Maybe you're better off not having access - the way doctors prescribe the wrong psych meds, the wrong cardiac meds, they cut off the wrong limbs, etc. etc. You should consider yourself lucky/fortunate.

Man, you're number three in the list of worst posters. If the doctors don't know about the studies, they
can'nt make educated decisions. It's not their fault! Go read the freaking JAMA article that you were
begging for. It's right in there.

The ignorance continues to amaze me.


you're right. when we dont agree with you it's because we're ignorant.


escobar

******
Hall of Famer

Posts : 4130
Offline
#43 : February 27, 2008, 09:31:10 PM

natural cures arent illegal. they just arent prescribed. just about every community has a natural herbal store that you can walk right into and talk to the guy behind the counter and find a natural "cure" for what ails ya. I've tried them on a few occasions and gotta tell ya for the most part they're junk.

this isnt about you all "caring" about people and "talking down to the govt agencies". It's more conspiracy mumbo jumbo government is bad jibberish.

everyone will most likely agree that drugs are over-prescribed. but i'm sure a lot of ppl will agree that a sugar pill wont fix your problems.

you two got pretty upset pretty quick when someone didnt agree with you that sugar pills and mind over matter are the cure-all.

Krazy, start up a business and start treating cancer using vitamin C as a treatment much like Linus Pauling did, see how far you get  before your entire business is shut down.

gatorgirl!

****
Starter

Posts : 343
Offline
#44 : February 27, 2008, 09:32:21 PM

Joe....I don't take my ball and go home when someone disagrees with me. I just don't generally repost on here more than a few times in a thread because nobody on this board is willing or open to new ideas. Nor do I have hours upon hours of time on my hands to sit on PR and respond to every thread, response, or differing idea. I'm not one to spend 8 pages, or 2 pgs or even 18 posts on one subject saying the same thing over and over again. People get tired of reading it again and again. If you read it once, you know the person's stance. It shouldn't have to repeated numerous times in the same thread. I am not insecure enough to feel that I need to quote every single posters response to something I said and defend myself again. People aren't going to agree with you 100% and they're not going to agree with me 100%. The threads about politics, religion, church, ghosts, ufo's, healthcare, what have you....are major topics that people have already made up their minds about, a post on a message board is not going to change their opinions. I'm sorry I've wasted your precious time by being the worst poster on the board, god forbid somebody disagrees with your opinions. Quit shoving them down people's throats. You started the thread, we know your stance, you don't need to continue to post after every person reiterating the same facts. We read it the first 464531 times.

What I can agree with you about Joe, is that I am aware of the placebo effect and have studied it very minimally. I know that alot of people are just seeking treatment, and if told it can solve their woes, they believe it and whatever ailment they had suddenly cures itself. Alot of medical treatment is a mental game. You hear about it so often that people who should've been dead due to some horrendous energy had positive mentalities around them and prayer and whatever else and they were able to come out of it. Or people who were paralyzed from the waist down and told they would never walk again, and they refuse to accept that diagnosis and within a few years they're walking with no problems. It is a mind game FOR SOME. I can agree with you there.

As to Escobar, I can fully admit that no I don't know the extent to which anxiety reaches. And I apologize if I offended you by minimalizing the effect on daily life....I know that feeling because that is what I felt when others were minimizing depression. I am sincerely glad you were able to cure your own anxiety, and I give a thumbs up to anyone else out there that does the same. I was just trying to point out that some people do need medication, be it that their condition is worse or maybe they just aren't mentally strong enough to move past it on their own. I have friends that have gotten therapy for it and it's worked for them. Maybe different people respond to different things. But again, I'm sorry if I made you feel that your anxiety was minimalistic or less important, that was not my intent or goal but as I reread my post, that is how it comes across.

And Krazy's right....natural medicines and treatments don't need to be passed by FDA to be used, they just won't be prescribed by a doctor. But there are plenty of organic, healty, all natural remedy stores all over many communities and countless websites offering to sell or advise on at home natural remedies. I think if something natural works for you, the more power to you and it should be tried first. Drugs should be a last resort, but for a lot of people it's the first. Some people in society today almost "want" to be sick with something and rush to a doctor after self diagnosing themselves. Restless leg syndrome? I mean come on.

I think everyone on this board can agree that drugs are over prescribed in today's society, but that's partly due to the fact that as patients we go into a doctor's office and tell them what is wrong with us and what drug we want for it. We see commercials on tv, ads in the paper or magazines, and we think oh, we have two of those symptoms so I have this disease and I need this medication for it. I don't know many doctors that are going to tell a patient they're wrong after said patient has convinced themselves that they do have that condition.
Page: 1 2 3 4 5 ... 11
Pewter Report  >>  Boards  >>  Pirate's Cove (Moderators: 3rd String Kicker, PRPatrol)  >>  Topic: Tom Cruise Was Right « previous next »
:

Hide Tools Show Tools