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John Galt?

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#30 : March 16, 2008, 12:41:17 PM

I'll throw my 2 cents in and remind everyone that Adam Carriker was also a DE at Nebraske and now plays DT for the Rams. However, he was a really big DE so switching to DT was not that difficult size wise.

My .02 would be if you did the opposite of the Rams defense last year, you did ok.


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#31 : March 16, 2008, 12:59:31 PM

Well FTG, we'll just agree to disagree.  I do NOT think the Senior Bowl is a horrible arguement.  It's very interesting, if you don't agree, number of tackles mean nothing, performance in the Senior Bowl means nothing, what does FTG?  How about the Senior Bowl practices?  Does his performance there mean anything, or do all those coaches and scouts go there for a vacation?  Does their performance in games mean anything?  Or no, that's right tackles mean nothing.  So I guess you have to make decisions about talent by ......what? Gut instinct?  Flipping a coin?  Bro, you are not talking sense.
You can use tackle numbers and Senior Bowl performance to make your overall case, in addition to size, speed, athleticism, etc. But my point is history has shown number of tackles does not make one player better than another because it is so dependent on how good or bad a defense is. And the Senior Bowl is just an all star game. It's nice if a player does well, but my Bill Swancutt example should show it doesn't make one player better than another.

Actually, I would rather you say you just have a gut feeling about Laws.

FRG is the most logical poster on this board.  You guys just don\'t like where the logical conclusions take you.

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#32 : March 16, 2008, 01:00:20 PM

I'll throw my 2 cents in and remind everyone that Adam Carriker was also a DE at Nebraske and now plays DT for the Rams. However, he was a really big DE so switching to DT was not that difficult size wise.

My .02 would be if you did the opposite of the Rams defense last year, you did ok.
Exactly. Most draftniks are projecting Dorsey or Ellis to St. Louis so they can move Carriker back to his natural position.

FRG is the most logical poster on this board.  You guys just don\'t like where the logical conclusions take you.

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#33 : March 16, 2008, 02:08:35 PM

My 2 cents is that Nose Tackle and Under Tackle are two completely different breeds.  Carriker lined up at nose tackle for the Rams.  A nose tackle is usually the run stuffing double team taking tackle, in both the 34 and 43, however, in the 34 the nose tackle has to be a lot bigger.  The Under Tackle in the 43 is the one responsible for getting penetration and collapsing the pocket to keep the quarterback from stepping up into the pocket and avoiding pressure from the Defensive Ends.  While the Under Tackle and Defensive End positions are different for the 43, the 34 Defensive End actually could also be a 43 Defensive Tackle if he is big enough.

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#34 : March 16, 2008, 02:14:58 PM

Laws was a DE in a 3-4 last year.  He also played every other position on the d-line according to reports.

FTG, I have a gut feeling about Laws!  I also have statistics to back them up.  I do agree if Laws had 75 tackles and someone else had 60 or 65, the additional tackles may or may not show the better player.  That is not the case.  Laws had 112.  Most others had the 57-79 we usually talk about when discussing d-linemen.  Dramatic difference.  His coaches talked about how disruptive he was even when he didn't get the sack.  With as weak a defense as Notre Dame had, he was also double-teamed most of the time on both the pass rush and running plays and STILL made that many tackles.

I have a gut feeling about Laws!!!

.....just my opinion

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#35 : March 16, 2008, 02:20:56 PM

My 2 cents is that Nose Tackle and Under Tackle are two completely different breeds.  Carriker lined up at nose tackle for the Rams.  A nose tackle is usually the run stuffing double team taking tackle, in both the 34 and 43, however, in the 34 the nose tackle has to be a lot bigger.  The Under Tackle in the 43 is the one responsible for getting penetration and collapsing the pocket to keep the quarterback from stepping up into the pocket and avoiding pressure from the Defensive Ends.  While the Under Tackle and Defensive End positions are different for the 43, the 34 Defensive End actually could also be a 43 Defensive Tackle if he is big enough.
I think Moore would likely be a NT, but that's not synonymous with holding your ground and taking on blockers. Players like John Henderson, Haloti Ngata, and Pat Williams are mountains of men but are still able to penetrate and be disruptive.

FRG is the most logical poster on this board.  You guys just don\'t like where the logical conclusions take you.

bucjoe

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#36 : March 16, 2008, 02:55:59 PM

You're right about those you mentioned.  Moore is NOT a mountain of a man in NFL terms.  He is a big man at 305, but not a mountain. 

We already have Hovan, who PR says the Bucs consider on of their top 10 players, to play the nose, with Ryan Sims backing him up.  Sims is a relatively young  player with more size than Moore and enough quickness to be in the UT rotation at UT some last year.  We don't need another NT type. 

Again, if Laws isn't there, we could take Moore and try to use him at UT.  I think if he plays like he practices, he would be able to play UT, but, inmvho, not to the quality of Laws. 

.....just my opinion

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#37 : March 16, 2008, 04:54:21 PM

As stated earlier Moore's playing weight is more like 315-320. He just slimmed down for the Combine. I doubt he's as good as the players I mentioned, but I think he compares favorably to someone like the Giants' Fred Robbins - 6'4" 317 w/ 5+ sacks 3 of the last 4 seasons.

Regarding Hovan, I don't care what the Bucs' staff thinks of him because he'll be 30 by the time the season starts and hasn't had more than 2 sacks in a season since 2002. If we could get a player 7-8 years younger, 20 lbs heavier, with potential for 5-7 sacks a year at NT it would be a huge upgrade.

FRG is the most logical poster on this board.  You guys just don\'t like where the logical conclusions take you.

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#38 : March 16, 2008, 05:00:48 PM

Here's something. Laws may have all those tackles but fewer splash plays.

Laws: 1 TFL for every 14 tackles and 1 sacks for every 28 tackles

Moore: 1 TFL for every 7.5 tackles and 1 sack for every 10.5 tackles.

For how much Laws is on the field, shouldn't he make more big plays?

FRG is the most logical poster on this board.  You guys just don\'t like where the logical conclusions take you.



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#39 : March 16, 2008, 05:48:10 PM

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bucjoe

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#40 : March 17, 2008, 01:52:04 AM

Where do those numbers say Laws is on the field more plays than Moore?

That isn't the right way to analyze numbers!

If you want to analyze correctly, tell me how many tackles each had as a % of the plays they were on the field!

If Laws was on the field for 78 more plays than Moore but had twice the tackles, what does that tell you?  Oh, that's right, you said # of tackles means nothing.

.....just my opinion
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