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#15 : December 04, 2006, 08:35:20 AM

ADW, what have we seen from them that would make you completely disagree?

Name the "poor talent" drafted.

Firstly, i think the majority of us here would agree that Clayton has reached "bust" status. Secondly, its been noted that Gruden likes rbs that can be a threat in the passing game and our Caddy most definitely ain't that. Thirdly, our current starting qb came from a system where he was most comfortable in the shotgun yet we refuse to implement it.

My opinion could be wrong... maybe you can offer up some examples that will give me confidence in our future direction.

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#16 : December 04, 2006, 08:42:01 AM

ADW, what have we seen from them that would make you completely disagree?

Name the "poor talent" drafted.

Firstly, i think the majority of us here would agree that Clayton has reached "bust" status. Secondly, its been noted that Gruden likes rbs that can be a threat in the passing game and our Caddy most definitely ain't that. Thirdly, our current starting qb came from a system where he was most comfortable in the shotgun yet we refuse to implement it.

My opinion could be wrong... maybe you can offer up some examples that will give me confidence in our future direction.

I do not think Clayton is a bust with a different coaching staff. He was nearly rookie of the year in his rookie season and has regressed since then?  Clayton takes blame but most of the blame has to go to the coaching staff.  And the person that gave him bad advice to bulk up needs to take blame.

Carnell is a talented back and won rookie of the year last year.   

It is Gruden's inability to adapt to the personnel he has that is the true problem with this team.   Smith, Stovall, Clayton, Carnell, etc did not become non talented scrubs over night all of sudden as some suggest.

How come Devery Henderson looked like a bust under Haslett but looks like a player now with Sean?

The Bucs FO in recent years has done a good job drafting.  My issue is how the coaching staff is coaching and using these players.

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#17 : December 04, 2006, 08:44:26 AM

adw, I would argue Brees is the reason for the Saints dramatic improvement, not Payton.  Brooks was inconsistent at best and lost a lot of games singlehandedly.

A great QB makes everyone better immediately.  The Bucs have no opportunity to bring in a QB of that caliber this offseason and a rookie will struggle so there is no easy way out of this mess.

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#18 : December 04, 2006, 08:49:58 AM

adw, I would argue Brees is the reason for the Saints dramatic improvement, not Payton.  Brooks was inconsistent at best and lost a lot of games singlehandedly.

A great QB makes everyone better immediately.  The Bucs have no opportunity to bring in a QB of that caliber this offseason and a rookie will struggle so there is no easy way out of this mess.

Brees is not the reason the Saints have cut down on their dropped balls and miscues on offense.  Brooks may have made mistakes but when it came to throwing the football that was not an issue with Brooks. Not to mention Brooks also led the Saints to many comebacks.   Henderson has improved becuase he is being coached and the message is being sent.  Brees has provided the Saints stability but the coaching staff has cut down on the mistakes and miscues that plagued the entire Saints team in general.


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#19 : December 04, 2006, 08:50:55 AM

ADW, what have we seen from them that would make you completely disagree?

Name the "poor talent" drafted.

Firstly, i think the majority of us here would agree that Clayton has reached "bust" status. Secondly, its been noted that Gruden likes rbs that can be a threat in the passing game and our Caddy most definitely ain't that. Thirdly, our current starting qb came from a system where he was most comfortable in the shotgun yet we refuse to implement it.

My opinion could be wrong... maybe you can offer up some examples that will give me confidence in our future direction.

Clayton may be very close to a bust, but I still don't think he lacks talent or was a poor pick. Something is wrong with the guys head. We know he can play, he needs someone, a coach or himself, to get his confidence back. Up until that dropped TD, I thought this past game would be his confidence building game as he made all his catches and had a nice run for the first down. But he dropped the biggest play.

Caddy was the best pick to make I believe. Who else would we have taken, Mike Williams? Caddy was the best choice.

I would say that Rudd, Alex Smith, Buenning and Joseph were all good picks

And not using the shotgun doesn't really have to do with draft selection, so I don't know why you brought that up. But I doubt the Bucs drafted a 6th rd QB with the plan that he would be the starter this year. Maybe if he was the starter in the offseason, you would have seen Gruden implement the shotgun in offseason minicamps and training camp. His problem now is that I don't think he wants to implement new things, since his offense his still having trouble executing the plays that they've been runnning for months




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#20 : December 04, 2006, 09:05:09 AM

I do not think Clayton is a bust with a different coaching staff. He was nearly rookie of the year in his rookie season and has regressed since then?  Clayton takes blame but most of the blame has to go to the coaching staff.  And the person that gave him bad advice to bulk up needs to take blame.

Carnell is a talented back and won rookie of the year last year.   

It is Gruden's inability to adapt to the personnel he has that is the true problem with this team.   Smith, Stovall, Clayton, Carnell, etc did not become non talented scrubs over night all of sudden as some suggest.

How come Devery Henderson looked like a bust under Haslett but looks like a player now with Sean?

The Bucs FO in recent years has done a good job drafting.  My issue is how the coaching staff is coaching and using these players.


I agree with that totally. Yes, Caddy is talented but slightly above average IMO.

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#21 : December 04, 2006, 09:07:04 AM

I do not think Clayton is a bust with a different coaching staff. He was nearly rookie of the year in his rookie season and has regressed since then?  Clayton takes blame but most of the blame has to go to the coaching staff.  And the person that gave him bad advice to bulk up needs to take blame.

Carnell is a talented back and won rookie of the year last year.   

It is Gruden's inability to adapt to the personnel he has that is the true problem with this team.   Smith, Stovall, Clayton, Carnell, etc did not become non talented scrubs over night all of sudden as some suggest.

How come Devery Henderson looked like a bust under Haslett but looks like a player now with Sean?

The Bucs FO in recent years has done a good job drafting.  My issue is how the coaching staff is coaching and using these players.


I agree with that totally. Yes, Caddy is talented but slightly above average IMO.

Carnell is not an elite talent but I agree with you that he is an above average talent. 



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#22 : December 04, 2006, 09:23:11 AM


And not using the shotgun doesn't really have to do with draft selection, so I don't know why you brought that up.

I brought that up as an example of our regime not drafting talent to fit the so-called system.... as i also feel about Caddy. If we had kept Thomas Jones, then we wouldn't have had to draft Caddy. This is why i'm not confident in the direction that this team is going.

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#23 : December 04, 2006, 09:27:14 AM


And not using the shotgun doesn't really have to do with draft selection, so I don't know why you brought that up.

I brought that up as an example of our regime not drafting talent to fit the so-called system....

Well Gruden is the one that was gushing all over Carnell and Clayton when they were drafted.  I do not think either one would have been drafted if Gruden did not approve.

But you do bring up a good point.  Why does Gruden like Carnell so much over a player like Travis Stephens?  Carnell is more talented than Stephens but Carnell is not exactly known as a pass catcher and Travis had issues catching the ball as well. 

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#24 : December 04, 2006, 09:31:51 AM

We are picking "decent" guys, but making a lot of picks too high, or not picking the best guy for the team (IMO, of course).
In 2004, the hands-down best guy for the team was Steven Jackson.  You knew it, I knew it, the whole world knew it.  But we didn't take him.
In 2005, I still believe that Derrick Johnson was the best pick for the team.  Caddy is a good back with a lot of upside, but isn't elite, isn't the best fit for the offense, and wasn't worth a #5 overall.
In 2006, I was really hoping to trade down, but felt the best option on the board was John McCargo (jury is still out due to his injury).  Joseph is decent, but not dominant, and I believe poor value for a R1 pick.


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#25 : December 04, 2006, 09:39:50 AM

We are picking "decent" guys, but making a lot of picks too high, or not picking the best guy for the team (IMO, of course).
In 2004, the hands-down best guy for the team was Steven Jackson.  You knew it, I knew it, the whole world knew it.  But we didn't take him.
In 2005, I still believe that Derrick Johnson was the best pick for the team.  Caddy is a good back with a lot of upside, but isn't elite, isn't the best fit for the offense, and wasn't worth a #5 overall.
In 2006, I was really hoping to trade down, but felt the best option on the board was John McCargo (jury is still out due to his injury).  Joseph is decent, but not dominant, and I believe poor value for a R1 pick.

I can see what you are saying.  They are picking players that are solid over players with upside (Exception being Jackson).  I suppose that is their draft philosophy.

I do not agree with that philosophy but the results have been at sea level compared to other drafts in the NFL. 



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#26 : December 04, 2006, 11:14:38 AM

We are picking "decent" guys, but making a lot of picks too high, or not picking the best guy for the team (IMO, of course).
In 2004, the hands-down best guy for the team was Steven Jackson.  You knew it, I knew it, the whole world knew it.  But we didn't take him.


I was so pumped when he fell to us and couldn't believe it when we passed on him. He runs inside, outside, and has hands(72 recs on the season). Can't say the same for our Caddy.

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#27 : December 04, 2006, 11:42:57 AM

You could bring back Vince Lombardi.  If Clayton can't bring in balls that hit him in the hands, it doesn't matter who is directing the drills and calling the plays. 



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#28 : December 04, 2006, 12:50:42 PM

You could bring back Vince Lombardi.  If Clayton can't bring in balls that hit him in the hands, it doesn't matter who is directing the drills and calling the plays. 

Then get him off the field.

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#29 : December 04, 2006, 01:02:48 PM

We are picking "decent" guys, but making a lot of picks too high, or not picking the best guy for the team (IMO, of course).
In 2004, the hands-down best guy for the team was Steven Jackson.  You knew it, I knew it, the whole world knew it.  But we didn't take him.


I was so pumped when he fell to us and couldn't believe it when we passed on him. He runs inside, outside, and has hands(72 recs on the season). Can't say the same for our Caddy.

Jackson fell all the way to the 24th pick. 9 spots after us.  It's not like other teams were jumping to get him. And he also had issues with a kneew injury that was keeping some teams away. In hindsight, yes he would have been a great pick. But at the time it happened, the decision to pass on him is not one that bothers me.
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