I don't care!

you REALLY are under the belief that we don't help other countries? You really think we do more harm than good? If you DO think that, you think it is intentional? You think there is any single country that does more help for the rest of teh world without asking for anything in return than we do?

And do you really think that our primary interest isn't looking out for number one? I'm not saying that there's anything wrong with that, but the picture you're trying to paint of a country full of benevolent philanthropists is a little naive.

[spartan]

Maybe I missed it, but where exactly did this woman ever say that Iraq and 9/11 were connected? 

Which was my point, but apparently it went straight over most peoples head!!

[spartan]

I normally agree with JG on most of his posts but on this one I think we ought to agree to disagree.

I happen to think Islamic Fundamentalism is not not only a hug threat to the US but to the world. I also think that Monday Morning Quarterbacking is a mugs game. If you were so indignant and rightous on the issue BEFORE the invasion was the time to speak out, not AFTER the fact. It is also poignant imo that those who are so virulent against the war in Iraq are also the same ones who are so vocal that we should intercede in places like Dharfur. Apparently a good war is one that you haven't started yet and you sponsor and a bad war is one that we are already fighting and GW ordered. A war is either justifiable purely on the grounds that thousands of people are being raped, murdered and slaughtered or it isn't  Make your mind up please.

I also laugh at the argument that they hate us because we are in 'their country'. If people were so besotted with facts, a minor fact of inconvenience is that we weren't in these countries before 2001 and they still hated us. If you are going to present an argument at least be consistent. I am not one to claim that everything has gone swimmingly well, or everything has turned up to be exactly as things were first thought, but that is not a reason , IMVHO to throw in the towel and go home. God forbid if we had CNN on Omaha beach. If there is a cesspool in your neighbours back yard, it doesn't matter if you pretend that it doesn't exist, the Mosquitoes are still going to come into your yard and bite the crap out of you!

[ufojoe]

I happen to think Islamic Fundamentalism is not not only a hug threat to the US but to the world. I also think that Monday Morning Quarterbacking is a mugs game. If you were so indignant and rightous on the issue BEFORE the invasion was the time to speak out, not AFTER the fact.

I know a lot of people who were against it before we went in. I marched in an anti-war rally BEFORE we
went in. I edited a newsletter and sent out articles that pointed to the very real possibility of there being
no WMDs, BEFORE we invaded.

I also laugh at the argument that they hate us because we are in 'their country'. If people were so besotted with facts, a minor fact of inconvenience is that we weren't in these countries before 2001 and they still hated us. If you are going to present an argument at least be consistent.

You've got to be kidding.

If you are going to present an argument, at least know the basic facts. We had troops
in Saudi Arabia from 1991 'til 2003, when we finally left. THAT was one of the major
reasons bin Laden listed for 911.

Now, if you want to argue about other attacks long ago? Fine. But on this stuff, you
are so off it's scary.

You want to talk about why a lot of them hate us? Go study the history of how we
supported dictator (including Saddam) after dictator when it suited our needs. Then,
when it didn't, we got rid of the dictator. It had nothing to do with us giving a crap
about the citizens of whatever country we were involved with at the time. And
by WE, I mean small bunch of evil people who drive the policy of this country.

Blowback is the right word. How can anybody be surprised that we finally were
hit on 911?

We went into Iraq to save the people from Saddam? He killed over a million. And
now, after us being there for 5 years, some figures put the Iraqi dead since
2003 at close to the same number. I'm sorry but I see something seriously
wrong with that. And we have our 4000+ soldiers and 100s of contractors
dead and 20+ thousand wounded. 

And you still think there's any possible victory with those numbers? Go talk
to the millions of displaced Iraqis who still can't go home. Or the families of
all of those dead Iraqis. Ask them if they thought it was worth it. You'll
get a different a response from Sunnis, Shiites and Kurds. And that's a
huge problem that isn't going away any time soon.

[eyeswideshut]

Well said, sir!

[Big_MAC_Buc]

Good post, Joe!

[ufojoe]

Jesse has me pumped up!

[The White Tiger]

Karen, your latest rendition is just as boring as your last. You have already been warned by the PR staff that your personal attacks will get you banned again. Present your side, just leave the personal attacks out.

ANYONE that infers that the United States has not acted benevolently, and only operates in our own interest - name me one country that has done as much good while serving their own interest? Name a country that does not serve it's own interest. Was it in our interest militarily when we sent 3 aircraft carriers to act as power plants, water producers, and hospitals to the Tsunami relief effort? Was it in our military interest to send helicopters and food as well as an offer of assistance to the people of Iran after their earthquake? Where was the worlds relief effort for the United States after we were devestated by Katrina? Yes, we act on our own interests - sometimes that interest is simply for the well-being of a country. I never saw one person refuse the aid because it came from Uncle Sam. I see many nations with their hands out demanding more, I see the UN implying rich countries should do more while he counts the money stashed in his bank account - money he put their by trading goods to Iraq under the guise of the "Oil for Food" program. Even as we are told we are excrement by the world's biased body at the UN, we are asked to enter the fray in Sudan and Chad - the people no longer trust the UN and are asking for the USA...why do you suppose that is?

And the older ones on these boards cannot pass up an opportunity to correct some history misrepresented here: Gamel Abdul Nasser said their was a Pan-Arab nation. He wanted to be it's leader. He attacked Isreal a couple of times. I believe he's the one who gave us the term "wipe Isreal off the face of the planet" speech...to other fascist fundamentalists of course. He is gone but his dream lives on, purchased by the bllod of so many poverty stricken muslim youth - betrayed by their clerics into forfeiting their lives for a lie. You say their is no proof of a link between Iraq and 9/11? I give you this "oldy but goody" from Nassers UAR/Arab Pact:

http://www.zionism-israel.com/dic/6daywar.htm

"On June 4 1967, "Iraq likewise joined a military alliance with Egypt and committed itself to war. On May 31, the Iraqi President Rahman Aref announced, "This is our opportunity to wipe out the ignominy which has been with us since 1948. Our goal is clear--to wipe Israel off the map."

That sentiment came in 1967, and was used to gain Abdul Nasser popularity and a leadership position in order to throw the British out of Egypt (because they had been Hitlers allies), and later he used this same popularity gained by his desire to rid Arab soil of British troops and focused it on Isreal. When we backed Isreal after they had been wrongly attacked - TWICE - he helped focus this wrath on America.

The new Islamo-Fascists hate the United States because we dare stand up to their intentions of hegemony in the name of their God. Current arab rulers (and it is NOT an accident that ALL Arab nations are NOT democracies) and clerics stay in power by assisting their various states in blaming ALL internal shortcomings in their respective contries on Isreal and America. If the people would stop listening the the drivel being preached at them long enough they could hold their various leaders accountable for poverty, repression of women, and especially racism within Islam - kind of what Darfur is all about, and intolerance of those that the fundamentalists feel aren't Muslim enough...another reason for Darfur.

That is why they attacked us on 9/11. That is what Sadaam wanted, he wanted to provoke a war with us to garner support from his neighbors. Sadaam defintely was no friend and he was in place largely due to the USA. He was put their as a strong man to head off Iran and he turned on us and our interests. He began killing and raping his people, subborning more and more rights and his mismanagement and uncontrolled military aimed it's war machine on other US allies - like Kuwaiti and Saudi Arabian oil fields. He then began sabre rattling that he had chemical weapons. The world fond them, tried to control them and he threw out the inpsectors. The UN found Sadaam in violation and that is what gave us grounds to illiminate a very bad actor. bin Laden has seized the opportunity won by Sadaam and has revitalized Nassers Pan Arab nationalism with his own brand of super hate speech supported by clerics giving heaven to Homicide bombers,

That is why we are fighting the new pan-arab nationlism currently residing in the spirit if Al Queda in Iraq.
It is why bin Laden sent those Saudi and Egyptian pawns to their deaths by cowardly attacking and killing 3000 souls on 9/11. There may not be proof but we are where the bad men are taking the fight to them until either we tire, or they do.

The blame America firsters are waging a battle to stop this war prior to it's achievable goals. It took a long time to subdue German and Japanese fascism. It has been an uneasy peace in Korea these nearly 60 years, but it has allowed a country to flourish.

Our goals for Iraq are similar to the Marshall plan to rebuild Europe, and Japan's rebirth. American interests being served is why we are making Kia's in auto manufacturing plants in Georgia. You can question our motives all you want, just don't ask me to believe that we are trying to make Iraq the 51st state...or because we want cheap oil. We aren't spilling American military blood for that. We are attempting to allow the people of Iraq the same opportunity their counterparts in Germany, Japan, and South Korea had. Make something of themselves. Turn off the mullahs call to death and step into a role as a regional democratic power in a country that has a government capable of garaunteeing basic human rights and tolerance.

Fight the bad guys - don't be apologists for them. Don't schill for them. You are simply aiding and abetting ghouls who would rather blow you up in a shopping mall than attack and armored clolumn.

We are fighting the bad guys...just like we have since we were kids in the backyards. SOmetimes you have to say that they're bad in order to fight them. You cannot tie soldiers hands behind their backs and cry when they get shot. If we are in, we should be in it to win it. That may mean killing all the bad guys...and that may take 100 years.

Hope this helps correct some blatant miscarriages of the truth I've been reading.

[BucsGuru]

I normally agree with JG on most of his posts but on this one I think we ought to agree to disagree.

I happen to think Islamic Fundamentalism is not not only a hug threat to the US but to the world. I also think that Monday Morning Quarterbacking is a mugs game. If you were so indignant and rightous on the issue BEFORE the invasion was the time to speak out, not AFTER the fact. It is also poignant imo that those who are so virulent against the war in Iraq are also the same ones who are so vocal that we should intercede in places like Dharfur. Apparently a good war is one that you haven't started yet and you sponsor and a bad war is one that we are already fighting and GW ordered. A war is either justifiable purely on the grounds that thousands of people are being raped, murdered and slaughtered or it isn't Make your mind up please.

I also laugh at the argument that they hate us because we are in 'their country'. If people were so besotted with facts, a minor fact of inconvenience is that we weren't in these countries before 2001 and they still hated us. If you are going to present an argument at least be consistent. I am not one to claim that everything has gone swimmingly well, or everything has turned up to be exactly as things were first thought, but that is not a reason , IMVHO to throw in the towel and go home. God forbid if we had CNN on Omaha beach. If there is a cesspool in your neighbours back yard, it doesn't matter if you pretend that it doesn't exist, the Mosquitoes are still going to come into your yard and bite the crap out of you!

That's right, we should have stayed in Vietnam as well. 
Spartan, we had no business going to Iraq in the first place.  It sure appears to me that we "saved" those pitiful Iraq people from the tyrant dictator Hussein?  The religious wars taking place in the Middle East are not going to end simply because the Saudis have arranged for us to secure oil fields for them. 
The joker says, "this town needs an enima."  I say, "this world needs one."

[Biggs3535]

Great post, Mr. Buckeye.

[spartan]

from: ufojoe55 on 04/01/2008 11:40:46 pm

If you are going to present an argument, at least know the basic facts. We had troops in Saudi Arabia from 1991 'til 2003, when we finally left. THAT was one of the major
reasons bin Laden listed for 911.

Now, if you want to argue about other attacks long ago? Fine. But on this stuff, you are so off it's scary.

Aw come on Joe that is lame. We were in Saudi Arabia by invitation because of the first Gulf war. The fact of US Troops being in Saudi being some kind of provocation for Al Qaeda is just an excuse on their part. Bin Laden HAS made the allegation of infidels being in the holy country as part of his reasoning, yet there have also been tens of thousands of British ExPats in Saudi for decades so when you analyze it it doesn't hold water. If stationing US Troops in foreign countries causes 'blowback' as you put it, how come we don't see Germans, English, Japanese and Koreans flying planes into buildings?

from: ufojoe55 on 04/01/2008 11:40:46 pm
You want to talk about why a lot of them hate us? Go study the history of how we supported dictator (including Saddam) after dictator when it suited our needs. Then, when it didn't, we got rid of the dictator. It had nothing to do with us giving a crap about the citizens of whatever country we were involved with at the time. And by WE, I mean small bunch of evil people who drive the policy of this country.

Yea I know the history. I also know that there are other countries in the area were we have had little to no involvement. Syria and Egypt spring to mind. I don't see much Al Qeada activity in those countries. Why might that be?

1. Because they are Muslim dictatorships

2. They would get their asses kicked if they tried.

Apparently it is OK for countries like Syria to station troops in places like Lebanon because they are buddy buddy with Hezbollah and they hate Israel.

Quote from: ufojoe55 on 04/01/2008 11:40:46 pm
We went into Iraq to save the people from Saddam? He killed over a million. And now, after us being there for 5 years, some figures put the Iraqi dead since 2003 at close to the same number. I'm sorry but I see something seriously wrong with that. And we have our 4000+ soldiers and 100s of contractors dead and 20+ thousand wounded.

And you still think there's any possible victory with those numbers? Go talk to the millions of displaced Iraqis who still can't go home. Or the families of all of those dead Iraqis. Ask them if they thought it was worth it. You'll get a different a response from Sunnis, Shiites and Kurds. And that's a huge problem that isn't going away any time soon.

I am not and have never said this was the prime reason for the war. I was merely pointing out the hypocrasy of some who berate against the war. These same people **CENSORED**ed and moaned about the US doing nothing against the human rights abuses before the invasion, then the criticized the US for actually doing it and now they are **CENSORED**ing and moaning about the US doing nothing in places like Dharfur. There are some who are firmly against this war, possibily like yourself for heartfelt reasons. There are also a lot of others who are against it purely for political or ideological reasons. A little consistency would be welcome.

If we pulled out of Iraq, Afghanistan and the whole Middle East entirely do you think it would stop there?
If we abandoned Israel and let it be wiped off the face of the planet, do you think it would stop there?

If the answer to either of these questions is no, how many Americans have to die before you deem it serious enough to make a stand and fight back? Perhaps you are of the persuasion that 'better red than dead'. Personally I am not. I do believe that despite its imperfections we do have something that is worth standing up for.

43,000 died in the Blitz in 9 months in WWII.
2400 died on Omaha beach in one day.
In the Korean War the 1st Battalion the Gloucestershire Regiment stood for 4 days until they ran ouf of ammo against a Chinese Army of 27000 to allow a Primarily American Army time to retreat and reform. Out of 750 men, 40 made it back to allied lines.

I am outlining these little nuggets of history to demonstrate that there are things in life worth fighting for and you don't just pack up and go home when times are tough. I am not playing the role of armchair general either and playing devils advocate with other peoples lives. Without painting myself as some sort of combat veteran or blowing my role out of proportion, I served for a year in Northern Ireland during the IRA troubles so know the risks of being in a combat zone. Not sure if Ulster comes under the definition of 'combat zone' but I can't think of a substitute phrase right now. Anyway, I knew people who were shot, bombed and killed there so it is at least comparable.

[ufojoe]

Aw come on Joe that is lame. We were in Saudi Arabia by invitation because of the first Gulf war. The fact of US Troops being in Saudi being some kind of provocation for Al Qaeda is just an excuse on their part. Bin Laden HAS made the allegation of infidels being in the holy country as part of his reasoning, yet there have also been tens of thousands of British ExPats in Saudi for decades so when you analyze it it doesn't hold water. If stationing US Troops in foreign countries causes 'blowback' as you put it, how come we don't see Germans, English, Japanese and Koreans flying planes into buildings?

You stated we didn't have troops in their countries before 911. You were 100% wrong. We
were invited into Saudi Arabia? By who? Bin Laden?

Like I said, troops/tanks on "holy land" in Saudi Arabia is one of the reasons bin Laden gave for
911. You can argue with him. So can I. But that's not the point. Ask any bin Laden expert
or Al Qaeda expert about our troops in Saudi and they will tell you the same thing. It's not
a fact that is in dispute.

Why weren't we attacked before that when we (and the UK) had troops in other places?
Well, we WERE attacked in 1993 at the WTC. But I understand your point. I am not
arguing with it. I'm just stating the facts about our troops and where they were
at such and such a time and how bin Laden points towards that as one of his
reasons for his murdering of innocents.

I won't debate the other stuff because there is no one set answer and we've been
through this over and over.

Better read than dead? Not even worth responding to. Ridiculous comment. That's
another reason why I am staying out of any prolonged debate.

[John Galt?]

I normally agree with JG on most of his posts but on this one I think we ought to agree to disagree.

I happen to think Islamic Fundamentalism is not not only a hug threat to the US but to the world. I also think that Monday Morning Quarterbacking is a mugs game. If you were so indignant and rightous on the issue BEFORE the invasion was the time to speak out, not AFTER the fact. It is also poignant imo that those who are so virulent against the war in Iraq are also the same ones who are so vocal that we should intercede in places like Dharfur. Apparently a good war is one that you haven't started yet and you sponsor and a bad war is one that we are already fighting and GW ordered. A war is either justifiable purely on the grounds that thousands of people are being raped, murdered and slaughtered or it isn't Make your mind up please.

Not sure what we agree to disagree on since there is not much to disagree with.  

I was very much AGAINST invading Iraq prior to the war.  I saw no reason for invasion and felt it would just create a power vacuum and turmoil.  I was against sending troops to Somalia and likewise I am against military involvement in Darfur (very similar situations).

But now that we are in Iraq, I do believe we have to stay until the job is done.  We made a mistake in invading that country but since we broke it, we have to fix it.

I also laugh at the argument that they hate us because we are in 'their country'. If people were so besotted with facts, a minor fact of inconvenience is that we weren't in these countries before 2001 and they still hated us. If you are going to present an argument at least be consistent. I am not one to claim that everything has gone swimmingly well, or everything has turned up to be exactly as things were first thought, but that is not a reason , IMVHO to throw in the towel and go home. God forbid if we had CNN on Omaha beach. If there is a cesspool in your neighbours back yard, it doesn't matter if you pretend that it doesn't exist, the Mosquitoes are still going to come into your yard and bite the crap out of you!

I don't know about that cesspool analogy.  The cesspool wasn't in our neighbors yard, it was 2 counties over on the far side of the state.

[The White Tiger]

It has been a fact since 1967...well maybe even as far back as 1948...that the Arab nations hate America for one reason and one reason only. It is also a fact that bin Laden has mentioned that we are a 'satan' that needs to be dealt with.

Does it logically follow that since we were not involved in curtailing extremism on a global level prior to 9/11, yet we were struck anyway, that if we pull out of Iraq the bad guys will simply allow us to retreat? If we are considered a satan (note use of small "s") does it imply that we can be rehabilitated, or does it mean that we are targeted for destruction?

I think when 7 Arab nations see one small country as a stumbling block and commit themselves to anhiliating that country as their lifes work - and their peoples life work - we need to realize that as a call to arms that they take seriously. We for too long did not take it seriously and they have been trying to spark a holy war in order to advance their beliefs and gain a larger stage. We finally responded and those that love peace more than freedom want us to play nice - let the bad men have their country and mind our own business. We were minding our own business when this started, look what that got those poor souls trapped in two buildings in New York. They are still very dead these many years later. We cannot bring them back but we should not stop short of anhilating those that did it, destroy their global network, and thwart their goals of world domination in the name of a bastardized religious endeavor.

I again ask: name me one country in this age that does not operate globally with it's own interest in mind? Then, name me one country that has done as much good while pursuing it's own interest? The Europeans can thank us for not being forced to learn German, the Asians can thank us for not having to speak Japanese and the citizens of state of Georgia can thank the US gfovernment for the car plant that will employ more Americans very soon. P.S. we're still awaiting the "thank you" card from Indonesia, India and Thailand after the dollars and equipment, including aircraft carriers that provided helicopter assistance, power production, clean water production and a 3000 bed hospital. Neither have we received a "thank you" from that great muslim nation of Iran for the aid we sent to them after their earthquake.

This is the greatest nation on the planet - and I'm sorry that's lost on some of you. Is it perfect? Heavens no, but then, what is in this life? I think perfection is not a realistic pursuit, striving for improvement is. We should all detest war. It should be made very ugly and short. It's aims should be clear and once committed to - do not dishonor the dead by stopping short of the established goal. That goal has not changed in this war - we must destroy extemism in that area and leave a furtile ground for democracy to flourish in Iraq. Let them become the regional power that is a bullwork against fascist hegemony that is the stated goal of our enemy. It's worked in Japan and it worked in South Korea. Germany and France have responded nicely to the self interest of America - lets give the same hope to a muslim nation this time 'round...

Just one Buckeye's humble opinion.

Buc Buckeye, we put McDonalds in those countries. So obviously we are a country full of sociopaths, child rapists, and goat sacrificers. We are destroying this world and nobody can stop us. So what if we provide medical treatment for 15,000 people in some **CENSORED**hole country, we let 5,000 more die who we didnt have the resources to save. We are such heartless murderers. Have you hugged a tree today?