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keeponbucn

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#15 : April 01, 2008, 09:22:00 AM

If winning divisions is satisfactory with the Glazers then it seems the past goals that Dungy had to reach are not the same for Gruden currently. 

To add on, Dungy was given time to build up the franchise. It was only when he had the team in place to go all the way and didn't that the new owner's felt it was time for a change. When the team is built the Owner's will expect more but the cycle they went through they feel Jon exceeded expectations.

alldaway

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#16 : April 01, 2008, 09:22:32 AM

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That's an incorrect interpretation of what he said. With the cap and lack of draft picks the owner's had a realistic view of the future and the road back to building the team from the foundation. Rebuilding a team is difficult and this FO has won 2 division titles while in the process. Joel is realistic and logcial, some traits I wish Buc fans had

We are beyond the cap and lack of draft picks now.

Dungy couldn't win his last two playoff games and he was toast.  Gruden hasn't won his last two playoff games but they feel since he won the two divisions it is satisfactory.

I will assume that if Dungy had won the division the last two years here that the Glazers would have retained him?  Becuase if that is not the case then there are different standards for Dungy and Gruden.

As for talent levels of the team Dungy didn't have that much talent on the offensive side of the ball.  Most of it was on the defensive side of the ball.  The zenith of the talent that McKay assembled was from the 2002 squad which Dungy wasn't here for to coach.

So the question that we have to ask now is this:

Is the talent level of the 2001 squad superior than the 2007/2008 squad?  It isn't simply black and white as portrayed.

Feel Real Good

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#17 : April 01, 2008, 09:25:24 AM

You guys are grasping here, the fact of the matter is division titles aren't easy to win in any division.
Year in year out that may be true, but not this year. If it was this easy Dungy would have won 4 division titles in 6 years.

I find it odd that now you clowns are saying the NFC South is weak when just recently it was one of the best in the NFL.
The NFC South has been tremendously turbulent with no consistency. The old Packers and Vikings were good every year.

The Central has been garbage for the past 5 years until this past one.
I don't care about the new NFC Central any more than the AFC West. Nothing to do with the Bucs now.

Ever think that the reason it was difficult to win the Central is because the Bucs sucked out loud forever? So now you're going to diminish the NFC South titles in any way that you can.
As Alvin Harper said, the old NFC Central had one of the game's transcendent talents in Barry Sanders, the old greatest offense ever, and possibly the greatest GM/head coach/QB combo ever with Wolf/Holmgren/Favre. The new NFC South has....

FRG is the most logical poster on this board.  You guys just don\'t like where the logical conclusions take you.

alldaway

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#18 : April 01, 2008, 09:27:05 AM

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To add on, Dungy was given time to build up the franchise. It was only when he had the team in place to go all the way and didn't that the new owner's felt it was time for a change. When the team is built the Owner's will expect more but the cycle they went through they feel Jon exceeded expectations.

But did he truly have the talent to go all the way ( 8) )? It seems maybe we have been wrong all along about that.

Using the power of hindsight the Bucs do not win the Super Bowl without adding Dilger, K-Mac, Dudley, Pittman, Oben, Jenkins, Lomas, Spires.  Dungy didn't have any of these players on the offensive side of the ball to work with.  It was Dunn, Alstott, Key, and zzzzzzz.  

So if Dungy had won division titles the last two years then he would have been retained?

keeponbucn

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#19 : April 01, 2008, 09:43:01 AM

But did he truly have the talent to go all the way ( 8) )? It seems maybe we have been wrong all along about that.

The owner's felt he did, are you suggesting if Dungy brought in those 8 players that he would have won the SB?

This is an old and tired discussion. Dungy is gone, thankfully, and Gruden has been given the keys to build the franchise back up. The owner has spoken and were very pointed, let's end it.

alldaway

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#20 : April 01, 2008, 09:49:47 AM

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The owner's felt he did, are you suggesting if Dungy brought in those 8 players that he would have won the SB?

Are suggesting he couldn't if he had more talent on offense? 

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This is an old and tired discussion. Dungy is gone, thankfully, and Gruden has been given the keys to build the franchise back up. The owner has spoken and were very pointed, let's end it

You realize while this answers many questions it also opens up new ones?

It is possible the Glazers feel regret for taking such a hard line stance with Dungy and softened it with Gruden.  As a result they feel they do not want to give into the media and angry mob that did Dungy in which I can understand to a degree.

But at what point can we say the Bucs are nearing their peak cycle?  Rebuilding doesn't take 5-6 years anymore in the current NFL so this is why I do not buy the idea that more time is needed for a "fair" evaluation.

If the Falcons play their cards right they can be in the thick of things in two years (maybe even starting this year).

If they want to take the Rooney approach that is their choice. Honest opinion?  If they choose to go down that road they better become one of the better drafting teams in the league.


keeponbucn

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#21 : April 01, 2008, 10:22:44 AM

Are suggesting he couldn't if he had more talent on offense?

It is possible the Glazers feel regret for taking such a hard line stance with Dungy and softened it with Gruden. As a result they feel they do not want to give into the media and angry mob that did Dungy in which I can understand to a degree.

But at what point can we say the Bucs are nearing their peak cycle? Rebuilding doesn't take 5-6 years anymore in the current NFL so this is why I do not buy the idea that more time is needed for a "fair" evaluation.

I am suggesting that Dungy would not have won with more offensive talent, this team needed a change.

No, the Glazer's are happy with their SB trophy and would not change a thing in regards to Dungy. Dungy did all he could for this franchise.

I don't know where the Bucs are at in this cycle, all that matters is that Joel and the Glazer's know and from his words they have a clear picture. Questioning people who have made billions on their decisions isn't where I'm at, I trust that the owners know what they're doing. Hell, I have no clue and that's the reason I'm on a MB right now and not running and owning an NFL franchise.

I find it odd that you can't face facts that the owner's are behind Gruden and Allen 100%. That there's some other motive to this article, that you again take a stab at the GM/HC with "maybe they've softened their stance since Dugny."

It will never end, the Gruden and Allen hatred will never end. It goes beyond anything that I've come across in sports.

Feel Real Good

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#22 : April 01, 2008, 10:24:33 AM

I don't think anyone here is saying Dungy should have been retained.

FRG is the most logical poster on this board.  You guys just don\'t like where the logical conclusions take you.

ANGRY PIRATE

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#23 : April 01, 2008, 10:00:02 AM

Gruden clearly hates Joel Glazer.

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#24 : April 01, 2008, 10:41:23 AM


To add on, Dungy was given time to build up the franchise.

Dungy was coach for 6 years.  This will be Gruden's 7th year coaching the Bucs.


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#25 : April 01, 2008, 10:44:18 AM

ADW, he may not have had talent in your estimation, but he got what he asked for: Keyshawn, Bert Emmanuel, Reidel Anthony, and Jacquez Green were all on his watch. That's 2 firsts in a trade, his free agent WR (at the time a fairly large deal given previous production), and a 1 and a 2. Dunn was a first. Brad Johnson was a big free agent acquisition. He also had Cosey Coleman (a 2), Yatta (first +), and hand-picked free agents in McDaniel and Christy.

It was also his call on his offensive coaches - did Foerster develop a single OL when he was there? How about the OCs?

The idea that the team didn't have the talent to go all the way is laughable - what the heck did the Ravens have in 2000? For that matter, how about that awful Giants team that year?

In 1999 the Bucs were nearly there with much less talent than they had in 2001.

I agree that the players brought in helped, but let's not get crazy - Lomas Brown waved a towel from the sideline. There wasn't a bidding war over Roman Oben. Who wanted Michael Pittman? Heck, Gruden wanted Dunn. McCardell was a cheap free agent that everybody thought was done. Jurevicious wasn't exactly coveted either. Dilger was on the down side.

keeponbucn

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#26 : April 01, 2008, 10:46:29 AM

Dungy was coach for 6 years. This will be Gruden's 7th year coaching the Bucs.

It's not a black and white situation. Dungy got here at the start of the core players coming in, Gruden got here at the tail end of that run. Big difference and the Glazer's know it.

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#27 : April 01, 2008, 10:50:28 AM

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I am suggesting that Dungy would not have won with more offensive talent, this team needed a change.  

I am suggesting that the team is nearing that point once more that change may be needed.  Another one and done in the playoffs and it will very difficult to defend. Do you disagree?  The lack of talent arguement will not be a valid no longer considering they had tons of cap space to work with but chose not to use it to acquire talent.  Just like when Dungy could have kept Steckel but chose not to keep him.  

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No, the Glazer's are happy with their SB trophy and would not change a thing in regards to Dungy. Dungy did all he could for this franchise.
 

And now it can be argued we are nearing that point with Gruden if the Bucs are once more one and done in the playoffs.

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I don't know where the Bucs are at in this cycle, all that matters is that Joel and the Glazer's know and from his words they have a clear picture. Questioning people who have made billions on their decisions isn't where I'm at, I trust that the owners know what they're doing. Hell, I have no clue and that's the reason I'm on a MB right now and not running and owning an NFL franchise.

Rebuilding doesn't take 5-6 years anymore and this team is reaching that point.  

But at one point can we differentiate their words from simply genuine support to public relations spin?  Obviously they will not come out and sucker punch Gruden and Allen after giving them a three year extension.  

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I find it odd that you can't face facts that the owner's are behind Gruden and Allen 100%. That there's some other motive to this article, that you again take a stab at the GM/HC with "maybe they've softened their stance since Dugny."
 

You are addressing the wrong person becuase no one is arguing the Glazers aren't behind Gruden and Allen.

IMVHO it is public relations spin and damage control (especially for the future).  Any good CEO would be advised to take such a course.  Glazers aren't dummies and understand the importance of planting the seed now.  But my honest opinion is that I will not be happy if the Bucs are one and done in the playoffs once more no matter what is said.

It isn't a stab at Gruden and Allen but reality which kool aid drinkers refuse to explore the other side of the spectrum.  They took a hardline stance with Dungy and their stance has softened since then maybe feeling regret for what they did to Dungy, and do not want it to happen to Gruden?  

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It will never end, the Gruden and Allen hatred will never end. It goes beyond anything that I've come across in sports.

You are talking to the wrong person.  I do not hate Gruden and Allen but at some point you have to say enough is enough.

I have been a supporter of Allen for quite a while but it is hard to defend what Allen has done in free agency this off season.  Now that the Ruskell has set the market by signing Trufant and Tatupa there is no excuse to not be able to work out contract extensions for Buchanon and Ruud.   Ruud nor Buchanon will receive as much as those Seahawks players obviously!  But if the Bucs want to go with the Steelers model they better become a vastly improved drafting team (right now they are average) and be able to re-sign their own players.

Ironically the tables have turned now where in the past Allen wasn't under attack as much as Gruden was.  Now the pressure is on Allen to provide talent for Gruden to have the horses to go beyond the first round in the playoffs.   But they are a packaged deal and if one of them faulters both may be gone.  Unless we are to assume the Glazers do not see it that way (eg Mckay stayed Dungy was gone).

Reality is winning a wild card playoff game at home is a low standard to meet IMVHO.  If you feel that is too high of an expecation then we will have to agree to disagree.

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#28 : April 01, 2008, 10:57:24 AM

ADW, he may not have had talent in your estimation, but he got what he asked for: Keyshawn, Bert Emmanuel, Reidel Anthony, and Jacquez Green were all on his watch. That's 2 firsts in a trade, his free agent WR (at the time a fairly large deal given previous production), and a 1 and a 2. Dunn was a first. Brad Johnson was a big free agent acquisition. He also had Cosey Coleman (a 2), Yatta (first +), and hand-picked free agents in McDaniel and Christy.

It was also his call on his offensive coaches - did Foerster develop a single OL when he was there? How about the OCs?

The idea that the team didn't have the talent to go all the way is laughable - what the heck did the Ravens have in 2000? For that matter, how about that awful Giants team that year?

In 1999 the Bucs were nearly there with much less talent than they had in 2001.

I agree that the players brought in helped, but let's not get crazy - Lomas Brown waved a towel from the sideline. There wasn't a bidding war over Roman Oben. Who wanted Michael Pittman? Heck, Gruden wanted Dunn. McCardell was a cheap free agent that everybody thought was done. Jurevicious wasn't exactly coveted either. Dilger was on the down side.
Where's McKay in all this? Didn't the offensive genius Gruden cry up and down Dale Mabry that McKay wouldn't listen about the players he wanted to sign and/or draft? Yet we're supposed to believe a defensive specialist head coach had the authority to make every call on offensive personnel?

FRG is the most logical poster on this board.  You guys just don\'t like where the logical conclusions take you.

keeponbucn

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#29 : April 01, 2008, 10:57:44 AM

Another one and done in the playoffs and it will very difficult to defend. Do you disagree?  


Rebuilding doesn't take 5-6 years anymore and this team is reaching that point.  


It isn't a stab at Gruden and Allen but reality which kool aid drinkers refuse to explore the other side of the spectrum.  They took a hardline stance with Dungy and their stance has softened since then maybe feeling regret for what they did to Dungy, and do not want it to happen to Gruden?  

Reality is winning a wild card playoff game at home is a low standard to meet IMVHO.  If you feel that is too high of an expecation then we will have to agree to disagree.

- I agree another one and done in the playoffs after this point is grounds for a change, no question.

- Rebuilding does take time and two fold with a horrid cap situation and lack of draft picks. That does take time ADW.

- I don't think the two situations have any relation, honestly. The time was right for Dungy and when the time is right for Gruden we will all know, now isn't the time. The tenure's of both coaches isn't apples to apples, they have run the team during different cycles of the franchise.

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