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acacius

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« #30 : October 03, 2006, 11:25:16 AM »

That isn't quite true. Some of his first day (rounds 1-3) picks right after Gruden got here were defensive picks (ie White, Cooper). Gruden has had the luxury of having a top defense with great coaches and the bigger areas of need have been mostly offensive. Next year's draft might pan out differently, but with very high draft picks it can be hit or miss concerning defensive players (see Merriman from 05 vs Williams of 06). Sometimes it's hard to pass on an offensive playmaker or a franchise LT. Where we go this year will be determined by how high we pick and what moves we make before the draft.

Not to mention that it's unfair to single out Gruden for trying to stockpile offense at the expense of the defense.  He's been very much continuing the previous team administration's drafting policy.  (Which hadn't spent a first rounder on the defense since '99 (and then '96 before that) and had spent first rounders on players such as Keyshawn and Kenyatta.)  Which in all honesty made sense since we've continued to have a pretty wretched offense and a pretty good defense.  Even if it is starting to catch up with the team.

dbtb135

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« #31 : October 04, 2006, 01:23:39 AM »

I agree Cerious.

The defense may have been ageing, but the offense had no talent because of all teh cap room being locked up on teh defense. The offense is still lacking talent at a few positions. And Gruden has used 1st day picks on defense.

The problem there is the offense is still lacking at positions we've used draft picks on. We drafted a WR in 04, and now everyone wants C. Johnson. We drafted Trueblood in 06, now everyone wants Levi Brown. When do we stop drafting offense? People still want to draft O because it's not in good shape, yet it's gotten almost 2/3rds of the 1st day draft picks(the picks you actually expect something out of) in the past 10 years. The D has gotten Ruud and White in the first two rounds dating back to what? 6, 7 drafts? Plus it's not Monte's fault that Yatta never panned out, Key left, and Gruden's "genius" isn't helping the offense do ---- recently. Yet he still gets to suffer those loss of picks, PLUS the ones that Gruden is hogging like a child now. Stop the insanity and give Monte a draft!

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« #32 : October 04, 2006, 09:26:19 AM »

The problem there is the offense is still lacking at positions we've used draft picks on. We drafted a WR in 04, and now everyone wants C. Johnson. We drafted Trueblood in 06, now everyone wants Levi Brown. When do we stop drafting offense? People still want to draft O because it's not in good shape, yet it's gotten almost 2/3rds of the 1st day draft picks(the picks you actually expect something out of) in the past 10 years. The D has gotten Ruud and White in the first two rounds dating back to what? 6, 7 drafts? Plus it's not Monte's fault that Yatta never panned out, Key left, and Gruden's "genius" isn't helping the offense do ---- recently. Yet he still gets to suffer those loss of picks, PLUS the ones that Gruden is hogging like a child now. Stop the insanity and give Monte a draft!

What the fans want and what the team actually does are two different things. Let's put that point to bed right now.

Secondly, the ofensive line has been in such bad shape that the team has tried to select linemen on the first day to bolster that Unit. Gruden isn't drafting new toys like receivers, QBs and RBs every year, he's drafting linemen because he knows his offense can't do squat until it gets consistent play from these guys. Right now, the fans think the odds on favorite to be our draft pick, if we end up with Top 5 pick, is Joe Thomas. You can't really argue with drafting a franchise LT (if he grades out that way). At the same time, we can make a better evaluation (and I know the coaches will) of the OL at the end of the season.

Lastly, the team has stood by drafting the player that the consider highest on their draft board with their pick. THis year the word was Manny Lawson was our guy until he was drafted right before our pick. Stop thinking Gruden is hogging the draft picks because that's a naive way of thinking. The team and coaches rank their players and then draft accordingly. In next year's draft, if the highest rated player on the Bucs draft board is a defensive guy then that's who'll be picked.

rpc1978

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« #33 : October 04, 2006, 02:10:50 PM »

 spin it however you want, but since gruden has arrived we have spent only 3 out of a possible 12 day one (rds1-3) picks on defense.  i realize that our defense has been the strength of the team for years.  gruden was brought in primarily for his skills on offense and thus, he tried to upgrade that unit.  to an extent that is understandable.  but that would only justify the day one picks if it was one sided. but as the numbers indicate, it not just one sided, its lopsided in favor of the offense.  as dbt pointed out, we still have holes on offense that the draft or even FA hasn't been able to correct despite the money and draft picks we have thrown at the problems. when does it end or at least slow down?  cerious, this regime and even the previous regime towards the end (as Acacious pointed out), took for granted that our defense would always be steady and we could therefore focus the bulk of our FA and draft efforts on offense.   That finally has caught up to us. 

rpc1978

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« #34 : October 04, 2006, 02:15:01 PM »

What the fans want and what the team actually does are two different things. Let's put that point to bed right now.

Secondly, the ofensive line has been in such bad shape that the team has tried to select linemen on the first day to bolster that Unit. Gruden isn't drafting new toys like receivers, QBs and RBs every year, he's drafting linemen because he knows his offense can't do squat until it gets consistent play from these guys. Right now, the fans think the odds on favorite to be our draft pick, if we end up with Top 5 pick, is Joe Thomas. You can't really argue with drafting a franchise LT (if he grades out that way). At the same time, we can make a better evaluation (and I know the coaches will) of the OL at the end of the season.

Lastly, the team has stood by drafting the player that the consider highest on their draft board with their pick. THis year the word was Manny Lawson was our guy until he was drafted right before our pick. Stop thinking Gruden is hogging the draft picks because that's a naive way of thinking. The team and coaches rank their players and then draft accordingly. In next year's draft, if the highest rated player on the Bucs draft board is a defensive guy then that's who'll be picked.

actually the "highest player on our draft board"  isn't true with this past draft.  EVen JF admitted in a response to one of my posts that Joseph most likely wasn't the highest rated available player on the bucs board.  in the post draft PR, the Bucs FO indicated that Joseph was among several players available at 23 with similar grades.  but the team felt we needed an OG.  so we reached for need there, plain and simple. 

CeriousBuc

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« #35 : October 04, 2006, 02:38:02 PM »

actually the "highest player on our draft board" isn't true with this past draft. EVen JF admitted in a response to one of my posts that Joseph most likely wasn't the highest rated available player on the bucs board. in the post draft PR, the Bucs FO indicated that Joseph was among several players available at 23 with similar grades. but the team felt we needed an OG. so we reached for need there, plain and simple.

I said Manny Lawson was the highest before being taken a pick before the Bucs. Now having players with similar ratings is something different, if one isn't leaps and bounds better than the next you pick the player that best suit your needs. That is not what I call a reach.

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« #36 : October 04, 2006, 07:01:53 PM »

What the fans want and what the team actually does are two different things. Let's put that point to bed right now.

I never said they weren't. I'm just making the point that many seem to STILL want to ignore the defense in the draft and go with the offensive player. It's just ironic that the team has also gone that direction recently. Who knows if that continues.

Secondly, the ofensive line has been in such bad shape that the team has tried to select linemen on the first day to bolster that Unit. Gruden isn't drafting new toys like receivers, QBs and RBs every year, he's drafting linemen because he knows his offense can't do squat until it gets consistent play from these guys. Right now, the fans think the odds on favorite to be our draft pick, if we end up with Top 5 pick, is Joe Thomas. You can't really argue with drafting a franchise LT (if he grades out that way). At the same time, we can make a better evaluation (and I know the coaches will) of the OL at the end of the season.

Lastly, the team has stood by drafting the player that the consider highest on their draft board with their pick. THis year the word was Manny Lawson was our guy until he was drafted right before our pick. Stop thinking Gruden is hogging the draft picks because that's a naive way of thinking. The team and coaches rank their players and then draft accordingly. In next year's draft, if the highest rated player on the Bucs draft board is a defensive guy then that's who'll be picked.

I'm not saying he's loading up on "toys" like some sort of Matt Millen. At the same time, you think he doesn't want to benefit from a player like Davin or Trueblood? At the same time, is Monte not getting any use on the defensive side of the ball? And another tackle? What do we do with Davis then? He's one of our few linemen who has proven he can play well, especially in a ball control offense if we ever get Caddy going again. The only offensive position I would want filled in the first two rounds would be center because that position has been in shambles for some time and even then, it wouldn't take our first pick.

The point is, we had an all offensive first day last year(a coincidence obviously, we just go by who's best on the board). Now do you think this year, under this offensive coach, with problems and age starting to pop up on defense, after drafting majorit offense recently, do you HONESTLY think there's a chance we could have an all defensive 1st day? NOT ON YOUR LIFE!

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« #37 : October 05, 2006, 01:16:35 PM »

1) Quentin Moses/Gaines Adams (DE) Georgia/Clemson - Each of these guys are pass rushing animals that are almost carbon copies of Simeon Rice. I'd rank Moses before Adams but they're neck and neck. Dumping Booger and moving Dewayne White to UT and having a DE tandem of Rice and Moses/Adams would make our d-line a pretty fearsome pass rushing unit. And as most of us know, the Cover 2 defense can only succeed with a strong four man pass rush.


At 6"2 and 273lbs, I didn't think he would have the physical size to play UT. Please could you explain your reasoning behind this idea?

Note: I am fairly new to the NFL and American Football, so I am not disagreeing with your statement as my knowledge would not allow me to do so.

rpc1978

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« #38 : October 05, 2006, 02:12:30 PM »

i agree BuKaneer.  White doesn't have the build to play DT full time.  he has made some plays there in pass rushing situations but he wouldn't be able to hold up in there against the run.  White should be re-signed and start at one DE spot.    we have some FA money to play with, I'd like to make a run at Dockett or Robertson in FA (To replace Booger) and draft Moses or Adams in the first. 



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« #39 : October 05, 2006, 03:54:00 PM »

The problem there is the offense is still lacking at positions we've used draft picks on. We drafted a WR in 04, and now everyone wants C. Johnson. We drafted Trueblood in 06, now everyone wants Levi Brown.

Thats because we still have big question marks at thos positions. Clayton was a good pick, and that makes 1 good young WR. Trueblood I dont know about yet, but even if he works out we still dont have anything better than an average LT. And if someone as talented as Levi Brown or Joe Thomas are around, you might want to pick them since they may be best player available. And IMO, either of them would be better than any OL the BUcs have ever had.

Gruden drafted a good TE, WR, LG, RG, and RB and lets just say for arguments sake he drafted a good RT, we still have mediocre talent and/or no youth at important starting positions like LT, C, #2 WR, #2 TE. There are as many needs on defense as well, but theres no reaosn to blame Gruden for "neglecting" to draft defense are failing to accept Monte Kiffin's imput on drafts because thats just not true



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« #40 : October 05, 2006, 04:01:21 PM »

spin it however you want, but since gruden has arrived we have spent only 3 out of a possible 12 day one (


spin? Thats such an ignorant thing to say. Had we drafted more defense Im sure you wouldve been teh first to comment on how the defense was already supplied with 70+% of the salary cap. Face it, since 2002 this team has been on tyhe other side of the hill agewise, and many positions on both sides of teh ball needed to be addressed for teh future. There were more pro bowlers/money with a few years left in them on teh defensive side and no one in thsi teams future plans on teh offensive side. Kerry Jenkins? Jeff Christy? Brad Johnson? Michaerl PIttman? Ken DIlger? Keenan McCardell? Keyshawn? Tell me what the previous regime did to ensure the offense would be capable in the future? The biggest name you can point to is Kenyatta Walker

dbtb135

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« #41 : October 05, 2006, 05:27:17 PM »

Thats because we still have big question marks at thos positions. Clayton was a good pick, and that makes 1 good young WR. Trueblood I dont know about yet, but even if he works out we still dont have anything better than an average LT.

Upgrading Davis would be an unnecessary luxury, at the expense of putting the defense on the back burner.....again.

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And if someone as talented as Levi Brown or Joe Thomas are around, you might want to pick them since they may be best player available. And IMO, either of them would be better than any OL the BUcs have ever had.

I've liked Thomas a lot for a long while, I still don't want him if it means Gruden gets another 1st while our defense continues to falter. Unless of course, our offense starts winning us some games. But thats not looking to be the case either.

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Gruden drafted a good TE, WR, LG, RG, and RB and lets just say for arguments sake he drafted a good RT, we still have mediocre talent and/or no youth at important starting positions like LT, C, #2 WR, #2 TE.

And what would you say we have on the defensive side of the ball, if let's say we have a good CB and MLB in Zemaitis and Ruud. We still need youth at just as many, if not more, defensive positions. We have no young playmakers whatsoever on the defensive side of the ball. White is borderline at best. And you can find quality backup TEs past the first day. Heck, we found our starter and future in the 3rd.

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There are as many needs on defense as well, but theres no reaosn to blame Gruden for "neglecting" to draft defense are failing to accept Monte Kiffin's imput on drafts because thats just not true

Let's be honest, Monte wants quality defenders, Gruden wants quality offensive players. It's only natural. But it's Gruden's team, and Gruden has a little more say, and Gruden's an offensive guy who's responsible for our offense. Let's call it as it is, very one sided.

LA BUC

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« #42 : October 06, 2006, 01:19:21 AM »

Let's see I'll take that 6'7" 325 lb left tackle, and that  330 lb center looks good, a safety with size and wide outs and cb's with 4.4 speed or better . No more little linemen or or slow 4.6 wr's and db's

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« #43 : October 06, 2006, 01:29:08 AM »

Let's see I'll take that 6'7" 325 lb left tackle, and that  330 lb center looks good, a safety with size and wide outs and cb's with 4.4 speed or better . No more little linemen or or slow 4.6 wr's and db's
Can't argue with that.

Heart counts, but not that damn much.

Eventually, some physical talent is going to matter as well. ;D


magicfan39126

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« #44 : October 09, 2006, 01:55:54 AM »

Version 2.0 (10/9)

1) Calvin Johnson WR (GT) - Yes, I realize how bad our defense has become. Yes, I know our offensive line still needs plenty of work but Calvin Johnson is the type of player you just don't pass up. I said last week that I thought we'd be picking anywhere from 5th to 10th. Scratch that. With our lack of defense and brutal schedule we'll be lucky to win three or four games this season leaving us with a VERY high pick. Anyways, the pick is Johnson. I've seen him play plenty of times and everytime I do, I'm amazed. He's as good a prosepect as I've ever seen. Think Larry Fitzgerald but with 4.35 speed. Is this pick somewhat of an luxury upgrade? Yes. But there is nobody available in this draft that will improve our team as much as CJ.



2) Brandon Mebane DT (Cal) - Mebane is a guy that could develop into the type of player that most of us thought Anthony McFarland would become. He a great pass rusher with a non-stop motor that is a perfect fit in the cover two defense, with one exeption, he can actually stop the run. He weighs 295 pounds right now but he's got a 6' 3'' frame that he could really add plenty of muscle to. Has a chance to become a great all-around DT.



3) Doug Datish C (OSU) - Former tackle with a big 6'5'' frame. Datish has excellent mobility and quick enough feet to become an excellent pass blocker. Almost a clone of his predecessor Nick Mangold. Big Ten offensive linemen rarely diappoint.



4) Mason Crosby K (Colorado) - Now before you throw eggs at me, let me explain myself. Against NO yesterday, we punted inside the Saints thirty five yard line on two different occasions. If we had a kicker that Gruden wasn't afraid to let attempt a 52/53 yard field goal, we might have won, or at least tied that game. Crosby has made a 60 yarder and several 58 yarders and can actually kick for a touchback once in a while unlike Matt Bryant. He is a Lou Groza award winner and his nickname is "golden toe".



5) Willis Barringer S (Michigan) - Barringer has great speed for a safety (4.50) and can really lay a big hit once in a while but actually participates in pass coverage from time to time, unlike Jermaine Phillips or Will Allen.



6) Garrett Wolfe RB (NIU) - You're probably saying to yourself, "but magicfan, isn't Garrett Wolfe super awesome? How does he fall to round six?" I don't know friends, I don't know. Wolfe is projected as a late rounder by most experts but I think he's a much better player than that. He reminds me of past steals lime Maurice Drew or even Darren Sproles. He could return kicks and punts for us and even spell Caddy from time to time. People say he faces inferior competition every week but didn't he tear Ohio State's defense to shreds? If he was two inches taller, we'd be talking round one.



7) Josh Wilson CB (Maryland) - Undersized at 5'9'' but has 4.35 speed. Could also return punts. He reminds me of Darrent Williams and is actually an excellent tacler despite his size.



Well, theres version 2.0 for ya, I wasn't able to get in as much defense as I has hoped.

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