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oregonbucfan

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#15 : May 04, 2008, 05:05:26 PM

all I know is Im glad we didnt take Jenkins. I talked to players last week who went against him and Cason and all 3 said Cason was way better. Pretty much said they didnt know Jenkins was on the field. May be different in the pros but I never was that impressed with Jenkins. So the Bucs did something right if they drafted on need I guess Talib probably was the best or 2nd best cb left




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#16 : May 04, 2008, 05:14:36 PM

I see you have trouble with logic and consistency:

Your whole thread premise is that we are drafting need instead of Best available, and that Best available would be the better way to go.  But then you make a need-based argument for drafting a WR:

Playmakers on offense. I am not arguing talib playmaking ability. I am arguing what effect Talibs selection had on the Bucs remaining draft. Devin Thomas or james Hardy or even Donnie Avery to some extent would have given the Bucs better insurance in the event that Galloway gets hurt. Dexter Jackson does not give the Bucs offense that option.

There would have been better options out there had  the Bucs not taken Talib in the 1st is all I'm saying.

In case you didn't notice, the entire NFL didn't rank any of the receivers this year as a RD1 prospect.  But hey, you're right, and all those teams with their miles of film and scouting staffs and million dollar budgets are wrong?

Take a look at the arguments you're trying to make.  They aren't logically consistent,  that should tell you you're off base.  No shame in re-evaluating your opinion, you should take a closer look and try and see if it really makes sense...

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#17 : May 04, 2008, 05:57:51 PM

lol @ bucko saying Devin thomas was the best WR hahahahahhaha ... donnie avery was buddy. donnie freaking avery. get it str8.

The Bucs offense needed playmakers and they got none in the draft. We all saw what happened in the latter part of the season and playoffs when Joey Galloway sat or was out with injury.

so, uhh, you start this thread with your own list of BPA available based on your personal scouting of all of the players, and grumble about us not going BPA and instead drafting for need.  and here you say we NEEDED playmakers, and are grumbling about why we didn't draft need.  if i didn't know any better, i'd say you are complaining just to complain.

talib was widely regarded as top 10 talent.  drafting a WR when NO ONE gave ANY WR in this draft a 1st round grade (as evidenced by no one drafting a wideout in the 1st round) would have been a NEED pick.  rarely do teams draft straight-up BPA.  that would be kind of foolish.  almost every team drafts based on BPA for their specific NEEDS. 

they don't hate us becuase we are good, the world is not black and white.

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#18 : May 04, 2008, 07:22:40 PM

Chris Landry....a great listen....said that most teams draft the best player available who will fit their system.

Happy and Peppy and Bursting with love.

4bucs

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#19 : May 04, 2008, 08:29:38 PM

have to agree with one thing in this post ....we shouldn't have drafted a cb in the 1st rd ....and I agree they were caught with their pants down in the 2nd rd and drafted Jackson in a desperate scrambling move because all the speedy playmakers were already taken...thats why you take them when you can get them...hope they learn from this fiasco...if anybody thinks they were targeting Jackson with that pick ...then follow the yellow brick road ....they will never admit it but they screwed up...lets hope Jackson comes through...its really a lot to ask...oh and by the way there was at least 4 or 5 very good cbs taken after our 52nd pick in the 2nd rd ....so yes I think the 1st 2 picks were ass backwards...we could have had Felix Jones,Chris Johnson ,or Donny Avery...big play guys who are teriffic kick returners and a VERY GOOD cb in the 2nd rd...the rest of the draft was fine .

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#20 : May 04, 2008, 09:17:27 PM

I swear some of you arm-chair GM's are stupid.

ryan24

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#21 : May 04, 2008, 10:39:57 PM

have to agree with one thing in this post ....we shouldn't have drafted a cb in the 1st rd ....and I agree they were caught with their pants down in the 2nd rd and drafted Jackson in a desperate scrambling move because all the speedy playmakers were already taken...thats why you take them when you can get them...hope they learn from this fiasco...if anybody thinks they were targeting Jackson with that pick ...then follow the yellow brick road ....they will never admit it but they screwed up...lets hope Jackson comes through...its really a lot to ask...oh and by the way there was at least 4 or 5 very good cbs taken after our 52nd pick in the 2nd rd ....so yes I think the 1st 2 picks were butt backwards...we could have had Felix Jones,Chris Johnson ,or Donny Avery...big play guys who are teriffic kick returners and a VERY GOOD cb in the 2nd rd...the rest of the draft was fine .

I don't agree that the cb's available at 52 were anywhere near the league Talib is.  Felix Jones? I don't think he was ever a consideration. I'm not sure there's a lot of evidence that Chris Johnson or Avery were all that much better than Dexter Jackson. So...I completely disagree.


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#22 : May 04, 2008, 11:28:03 PM

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Many draft sites had Talib ranked higher than Mendenhall as a draft prospect

No.

And when the drug issues came out Jenkins/Cason leap frogged Talib in the cornerback rankings the last two months heading into the draft.

Quote
Take a look at the arguments you're trying to make.  They aren't logically consistent,  that should tell you you're off base.

Actually other than the WR value, Buck40 has been consistent.  Bucs drafted purely on need not best available player. 

dbucfan

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#23 : May 04, 2008, 11:48:39 PM

Clearly Jenkins (and Cason?) did not leap frog Talib on the professional boards.  Mock drafts repeatedly show their value and application on draft day...

I think need picks for the buccs in '08 should have lead to the buccs to WR, RB, UT/DT and WR, RB, and UT/DE picks -the RB should have been in the first round.  So I don't see any consistency in bucko's BPA thoughts.  Wants BPA (or seems to) except when he doesn't wish to be burdened by it...  Nice... Consistent.

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#24 : May 04, 2008, 11:50:24 PM

have to agree with one thing in this post ....we shouldn't have drafted a cb in the 1st rd ....and I agree they were caught with their pants down in the 2nd rd and drafted Jackson in a desperate scrambling move because all the speedy playmakers were already taken...thats why you take them when you can get them...hope they learn from this fiasco...if anybody thinks they were targeting Jackson with that pick ...then follow the yellow brick road ....they will never admit it but they screwed up...lets hope Jackson comes through...its really a lot to ask...oh and by the way there was at least 4 or 5 very good cbs taken after our 52nd pick in the 2nd rd ....so yes I think the 1st 2 picks were butt backwards...we could have had Felix Jones,Chris Johnson ,or Donny Avery...big play guys who are teriffic kick returners and a VERY GOOD cb in the 2nd rd...the rest of the draft was fine .

I agree with you to a point. They definitely blew the 2nd round pick because of their 1st round pick and the run. Why not grab who you think is the best WR available while you have the chance or trade back. Also I know everybody likes the 3rd round pick but there were a ton of guys who could have helped us at weak positions. Center and Guard are overflowing with capable players yet we spent a 3rd round pick on another guard/center. Dre Moore was what salvaged this draft for me. We obviously need a QB at some point but while we were picking another one we passed up on some starting quality defensive games by picking Johnson. Our 6th and 7th round picks won't see the field for us. There is probably 2 picks in this draft that will see the field and contribute. We need to make our picks count. Watch James Hardy this year, I'm telling you, whoever said there weren't any good WRs in this draft is absolutely wrong.



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#25 : May 05, 2008, 12:29:14 AM

Quote
Many draft sites had Talib ranked higher than Mendenhall as a draft prospect

No.

And when the drug issues came out Jenkins/Cason leap frogged Talib in the cornerback rankings the last two months heading into the draft.

Quote
Take a look at the arguments you're trying to make.  They aren't logically consistent,  that should tell you you're off base.

Actually other than the WR value, Buck40 has been consistent.  Bucs drafted purely on need not best available player. 


And other than steroids, nothing about Roger Clemens was really bad for baseball...when the central premise for your argument is flawed, the rest fails too.  His arguments on the following rounds are flawed by how he claims the "mistake" in rd1 impacted how we picked following it.  Like so:
All elephants are pink
Fred is an elephant
therefore, Fred is pink...



Drafting "best available" is an ideal, an ideal that needs tempering with reality.  When the best available for the colts is a QB, should they draft him?  Should Minnesota have gone RB in round one if the "best available" fell to them?  You pick based on where you have a position that isn't already locked down, and take the best available guy in that pool.  After the first few rounds you grab a "steal" if he falls to you and the position isn't locked down, then you go depth or project/highrisk-reward.


There are, IMO, 3 types of positions you look at at the end of each season: 1)Locked down 2) solid, but if a good opportunity falls take it 3) needs help.  WR and CB and DT were our type 3 positions.  (C was too until Faine, and RB wasn't one of them, we've got it covered -- some may not like to hear that or disagree, but that is clearly the feeling in the FO.)  I'll admit that of those 3 positions, CB was the closest IMO to a type 2 rather than 3, but it still fell into the 3. 

When picking those were the priorities, and quite frankly Talib is a safer bet than Avery.  His character issues may make him less of a sure bet than we'd like, but at least the cat had clear rd1 talent.  Avery was merely the best in a --to be generous-- extermely mediocre receiver class.  The only real question with Talib was character.  Now some may have preferred a different player.  TBH, I did -- when my wife asked me as we were on the clock, I told her "Jenkins".  Not because I like the cat -- I don't follow the Bulls -- but because he was a lot safer, and was a position that we needed help in.  I was surprised by Talib, but he was definitely a rd1 guy and the bucs liked him better...









SarasotaBuc Fan

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#26 : May 05, 2008, 12:37:41 AM

Quote
Many draft sites had Talib ranked higher than Mendenhall as a draft prospect

No.

And when the drug issues came out Jenkins/Cason leap frogged Talib in the cornerback rankings the last two months heading into the draft.

Quote
Take a look at the arguments you're trying to make.  They aren't logically consistent,  that should tell you you're off base.

Actually other than the WR value, Buck40 has been consistent.  Bucs drafted purely on need not best available player. 


And other than steroids, nothing about Roger Clemens was really bad for baseball...when the central premise for your argument is flawed, the rest fails too.  His arguments on the following rounds are flawed by how he claims the "mistake" in rd1 impacted how we picked following it.  Like so:
All elephants are pink
Fred is an elephant
therefore, Fred is pink...



Drafting "best available" is an ideal, an ideal that needs tempering with reality.  When the best available for the colts is a QB, should they draft him?  Should Minnesota have gone RB in round one if the "best available" fell to them?  You pick based on where you have a position that isn't already locked down, and take the best available guy in that pool.  After the first few rounds you grab a "steal" if he falls to you and the position isn't locked down, then you go depth or project/highrisk-reward.


There are, IMO, 3 types of positions you look at at the end of each season: 1)Locked down 2) solid, but if a good opportunity falls take it 3) needs help.  WR and CB and DT were our type 3 positions.  (C was too until Faine, and RB wasn't one of them, we've got it covered -- some may not like to hear that or disagree, but that is clearly the feeling in the FO.)  I'll admit that of those 3 positions, CB was the closest IMO to a type 2 rather than 3, but it still fell into the 3. 

When picking those were the priorities, and quite frankly Talib is a safer bet than Avery.  His character issues may make him less of a sure bet than we'd like, but at least the cat had clear rd1 talent.  Avery was merely the best in a --to be generous-- extermely mediocre receiver class.  The only real question with Talib was character.  Now some may have preferred a different player.  TBH, I did -- when my wife asked me as we were on the clock, I told her "Jenkins".  Not because I like the cat -- I don't follow the Bulls -- but because he was a lot safer, and was a position that we needed help in.  I was surprised by Talib, but he was definitely a rd1 guy and the bucs liked him better...











hahah^^ remind me not to argue with this guy. he is a pro...  whoever this was to got pretty much owned.

props to caradoc1 for bringing it.


Boid Fink

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#27 : May 05, 2008, 12:52:30 AM

This talk of blown picks makes me ill.  Are you guys who say they have "blown" picks serious?  How many downs have you seen the guys play in Pewter?

Go choke on chicken bones man...the kind that Zell Miller serves up. [banghead]

How can you tell if anyone was a reach or not?  Based on a draft ranking? ::)  You guys are seriously stupid if you want me to believe you have watched the guys the Bucs drafted enough to know their ins and outs... :-you rely too much on draft "technicians", as we all do.  Except for the guys who the Bucs organization pays to watch the college games to figure the details out. :)

I understand this is a MB, but some of you cats should be banned for a week or two for being completely retarded. ;D


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#28 : May 05, 2008, 12:55:35 AM

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Drafting "best available" is an ideal, an ideal that needs tempering with reality.

The talent level of the team is middle of the road.  Is that reality good enough?  Name a position on this team that could not use an upgrade?  QB?  Yes.  RB? Yes.  As weak as the WR draft class was ( I called it months ago) would Avery be an upgrade? Yes.  Would Devin Thomas be an upgrade? Yes.  Is Talib an upgrade as a dime CB?  Yes but was he the best available player?  Nope.

There is a reason why the Bucs have been an average team in the draft and frankly that is the reality.

Quote
When the best available for the colts is a QB, should they draft him?  

That is the whole point of drafting best available player.  You are stacking talent and disregarding the need areas.    Consiering the Colts do not have a quality player behind Peyton Manning why not?  Teams that do not have many need areas can draft best available player.    Bucs chose to sit on the money and not address need areas in free agency which led them to draft for needs in the draft.   Isn't that a coincidence?

Quote
Should Minnesota have gone RB in round one if the "best available" fell to them?  

Minnesota went BAP last year and it paid off huge even though they had a bunch of serviceable backs on the roster.   The BAP for the Vikes would have been an OL at their original draft spot.  

Quote
You pick based on where you have a position that isn't already locked down, and take the best available guy in that pool.  After the first few rounds you grab a "steal" if he falls to you and the position isn't locked down, then you go depth or project/highrisk-reward.

Taking the best available guy in a pool is another way of saying that you are drafting for need.

Quote
There are, IMO, 3 types of positions you look at at the end of each season: 1)Locked down 2) solid, but if a good opportunity falls take it 3) needs help.  WR and CB and DT were our type 3 positions.  (C was too until Faine, and RB wasn't one of them, we've got it covered -- some may not like to hear that or disagree, but that is clearly the feeling in the FO.)  I'll admit that of those 3 positions, CB was the closest IMO to a type 2 rather than 3, but it still fell into the 3.  

If you consider CB a type 3 position then the case can easily made that RB is a type 3 position as well.   If the FO is so confident with the RB position then when will we see Graham's extension?  Or how about an extension for Carnell?

Quote
When picking those were the priorities, and quite frankly Talib is a safer bet than Avery.  His character issues may make him less of a sure bet than we'd like, but at least the cat had clear rd1 talent.  Avery was merely the best in a --to be generous-- extermely mediocre receiver class.  The only real question with Talib was character.  Now some may have preferred a different player.  TBH, I did -- when my wife asked me as we were on the clock, I told her "Jenkins".  Not because I like the cat -- I don't follow the Bulls -- but because he was a lot safer, and was a position that we needed help in.  I was surprised by Talib, but he was definitely a rd1 guy and the bucs liked him better...

Talib wasn't even the 4th best CB in the deep CB class.  Talib's draft stock took a hit and would have plunged into the early 2nd round if it were not for the Bucs selecting him early.


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#29 : May 05, 2008, 12:56:25 AM

This talk of blown picks makes me ill.  Are you guys who say they have "blown" picks serious?  How many downs have you seen the guys play in Pewter?

Go choke on chicken bones man...the kind that Zell Miller serves up. [banghead]

How can you tell if anyone was a reach or not?  Based on a draft ranking? ::)  You guys are seriously stupid if you want me to believe you have watched the guys the Bucs drafted enough to know their ins and outs... :-you rely too much on draft "technicians", as we all do.  Except for the guys who the Bucs organization pays to watch the college games to figure the details out. :)

I understand this is a MB, but some of you cats should be banned for a week or two for being completely retarded. ;D

honestly, its just bucko40.. he should probably delete this thread, because everyone has been against him... it would save him a little bit of embarrassment.. and maybe would gain some more respect.  this thread is flat out outrageous.

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