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LVBUC

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#30 : May 15, 2008, 05:12:12 PM

You all have to take in consideration that our 2008 team is a better team on offense.  Our O-line is know a strength.(I can't believe I said that)  With a great O-line an average QB and RB look good.

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#31 : May 15, 2008, 05:21:47 PM

if Garcia isn't the starting QB this year, throw in the towel and look toward the following year.

true..

It's not even close to being true. I don't know where people come up with this stuff.

Not counting Week 16 and 17 in which the other starters were not playing... (if you think those games should be included or you think Garcia should get credit for the Redskins win and not Gradkowski, don't bother posting, this discussion will be above you're football intelligence level)

Garcia had a .636 win% vs a .466 schedule.
Gradkowski and McCown had a .667 win% vs a .500 schedule




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#32 : May 15, 2008, 05:58:08 PM

JC510...Garcia started and finished that game.  Gradkowski did nothing to contribue to the Bucs win against the Redskins.  The Bucs D had how many turnovers that game?

Some people are too pro Garcia...like myself...but your definetly too far the other way....


You exclude McCowns losses to SF and CAR b/c there weren't starters in there?  There was still plenty of starters playing in that game.  You then give Gradkowski the win in Washington...pfft..

get a grip man.  You won't hush up about McCown until he plays again and shows that his performance was a fluke....well except he'll still lose the games..



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#33 : May 15, 2008, 06:14:19 PM

if Garcia isn't the starting QB this year, throw in the towel and look toward the following year.

true..

False


You guys need to dial back on the Garcia love.  We played a soft - very soft - schedule, the D played well, and the running game was solid.  Yet we got 13 TD's from him.  In 06 Grads played 13 games and he got 9 TD's.  As a ROOKIE, from a small school.  In 06 our D also played the worst it's played in a decade.

And don't give me that crap about "Oooh look at the TD's he set up".  Every QB sets up TDs for the runner.  We don't try to add theirs into their numbers, so don't try to use that to make it look like Jeff's TD #s were anythign other than pathetic.

Jeff brought confidence and poise to a very young offense that was reeling from 2 years or untalented, inexperienced QBs calling the shots and a horrible embarassment of a season before he got here.  He brought "average" QB play that looked awesome because of the les it was viewed through. That's what he brought.  Nothing else (other than carmella...)

Bottom line is Jeff did not have a great season, he merely provided a change from utter crap.  I'm on the McCown wagon, and not because I see a Manning or Brady in him.  Garcia has little arm and little mistakes.  Greise has average arm and many mistakes.  Luke has a good arm and few mistakes.  All of them are NOT elite QBs.  They're middle of the road, and the difference between them is not that great.  Luke at least can learn and improve his strength-to-weakness ratio.  Greise won't, he's had the time and has proven he can't.  Jeff's arm isn't going to suddenly reappear.  I'd really like to see him put as the backup THIS year, because my opinion is he's gonna get hurt early, or pull a Brad -- his arm will die.  And then we'll take forever making the decision to change, and we won't really know what we have in Luke, if he can learn or not.  Luke may not pan out, but he's the best shot we have right now, and Garcia's just not so much better that it makes sense to start him and wait on seeing if Luke has it or not.  Even if he doesn't grow, Luke is already very comparable to Jeff's performance.


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#34 : May 15, 2008, 06:47:50 PM

'Doc - you're usually very prescient and we commonly agree - just not on this topic.

Doesn't make either of us wrong, but I have seen nothing from McCown to bestow that much faith in his abilites. He won only one game - and we nearly lost that game. After several years in the league he still makes the BIG pick mistake. He killed us in 2 games, nearly a 3rd last year.

I don't disagree with ALL that you say - I agree that we played a soft schedule. But even with that schedule Garcia was the only QB that had a winning record in the games we counted on him to win.

That will be a tougher task - where the difference between Garcia and McCown show up is this - Garcia makes the players around him better. Luke needs a stronger supporting caste - and NOT just a better o-line.

Greise did not have the ability to beat out Rex Grossman - he was simply the best option for a game managing back-up. He doesn't have the ability to put a team on his back and win anymore - if he ever had that ability. No, I agree weak schedule translated into a few additional wins that WON'T be duplicated this year. We lose Jeff and we lose the winningest QB on the roster. That does not bode well.

In case anyone missed it - we are woefully lacking in the area of offensive playemakers, so Jeff doesn't have a lot to work with - no one else has the ability.

That does not mean I think Jeff Garcia is a GREAT QB - he just fits this offense better than anyone we've had under Gruden, and anyone currently under contract.


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lhasara

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#35 : May 15, 2008, 07:01:06 PM

Offensive touchdowns for the Bucs over the last several years (not counting Returns or Def)
2007 ------ 33   =  15 Rush and 18 Rec
2006 ------ 20   =    6 Rush and 14 Rec
2005 ------ 30   =  13 Rush and 17 Rec
2004 ------ 33   =    9 Rush and 24 Rec
2003 ------ 32   =    5 Rush and 27 Rec
2002 ------ 29   =    6 Rush and 23 Rec

IMHO, the two biggest reasons that Garcia( ?and McCown/Grads) look so good is that:
1) they followed the disaster that was 2006
2) they were able to score more than half their total points against a terribly weak NFC South, who were all ranked in the bottom half of the NFL defensively.

Some above me have posted that the current OL is now a strength. Was the OL a strength in the years 2002-2006, or when did it become so?

The Crow's Nest

EDIT: I type so slowly that I did not submit this till after the above two posts, so I agree with much of what caradoc is saying!! I also agree with Buc Buckeye that I'm still not so sure about Luke McCown. When any QB takes a snap inside his own 3 yard line, what QB since peewee league doesn't have a little voice in his head saying "whatever you do, don't take a sack."?

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#36 : May 15, 2008, 07:24:31 PM

Agree Caradoc....all the way around.

Badabing, you have said several times before that there were plenty of starters playing with Luke.  You KNOW that Galloway didn't play, and Graham didn't play the entire games.  Several other starters also didn't play.  While you "play down" their absence, you happily acknowledge Galloway's ineffectiveness due to the shoulder injury had a great effect on the playoff game.  That just doesn't add up dude!  If Galloway's absence greatly hurt our offense when Garcia was playing, his not playing AT ALL in the "substitute games", hurt Luke's performance and the performance of the offense just as much.  In FACT, what would you be saying in defense of Garcia's performance if HE was missing all of the starters that LUKE was?  

You would be defending Garcia as fast as you could type.

Cut Luke the same slack you would Garcia!

.....just my opinion

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#37 : May 15, 2008, 07:33:43 PM

bucjoe - I only know from wins and losses.

Garcia won with the guys he had - bacause he made those around him better.

McCown (mostly) lost and made those around him look worse. HE made the mistake in the Saints game when Joey Galloway was wide open for a SURE TD...only Luke threw it to the other team - and THAT mistake made for a furious comeback in which we had to rely on a BONEHEAD call by Sean Peyton that giftwrapped the opportunity for us (that WON'T be happenng on a regular basis). That is the consistent issue regarding McCown, not a one time problem. Can he get better? Maybe - but I don't want to find out unless we have no other option.

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#38 : May 15, 2008, 07:51:31 PM

'Doc - you're usually very prescient and we commonly agree - just not on this topic.

Doesn't make either of us wrong, but I have seen nothing from McCown to bestow that much faith in his abilites. He won only one game - and we nearly lost that game. After several years in the league he still makes the BIG pick mistake. He killed us in 2 games, nearly a 3rd last year.

I don't disagree with ALL that you say - I agree that we played a soft schedule. But even with that schedule Garcia was the only QB that had a winning record in the games we counted on him to win.

That will be a tougher task - where the difference between Garcia and McCown show up is this - Garcia makes the players around him better. Luke needs a stronger supporting caste - and NOT just a better o-line.

Greise did not have the ability to beat out Rex Grossman - he was simply the best option for a game managing back-up. He doesn't have the ability to put a team on his back and win anymore - if he ever had that ability. No, I agree weak schedule translated into a few additional wins that WON'T be duplicated this year. We lose Jeff and we lose the winningest QB on the roster. That does not bode well.

In case anyone missed it - we are woefully lacking in the area of offensive playemakers, so Jeff doesn't have a lot to work with - no one else has the ability.

That does not mean I think Jeff Garcia is a GREAT QB - he just fits this offense better than anyone we've had under Gruden, and anyone currently under contract.




He's started what, 7 games?  He's essentially a rookie.  The one thing you can't learn sitting on the bench is dealing with the pressure of the moment.  You have to get in there to learn it.  Every QB makes mistakes.  Either they grow out of it, or they don't.  Every time a team drafts a QB they have to give him time to develop on the field.  As far as I know the only recent exceptions to this are Marino and big Ben. 

McCown doesn't look any more "lost" than many other young QB's.  It's a shame to pass on giving him a look because we're afraid he might turn out like robosack.  Me also might turn out to be a hell of a QB.  He's got more physical talent than probably any QB we've had on this team in many moons.  But people want to pass because he looked like a first year QB?


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#39 : May 15, 2008, 08:02:46 PM

You contradict yourself AGAIN Buckeye!  If all you know is wins and losses, you would be forgetting the mistakes made in the NO game because we WON it.  Also you say LUKE made the mistake on the int on the throw to Galloway, even though you KNOW GALLOWAY said it was HIS mistake.  He said HIMSELF he ran the wrong route, and Luke's throw went to where he was SUPPOSED to go!

You, and many others, also seem to ignore what Luke did AFTER the fumble was recovered.  Dude, it's not like we got the fumble on the 2 yard line.  IIRC, it was out around the 40.  Luke then drove the team down the field, with the clock running out, and threw the WINNING TD PASS shortly before the clock ran out.  IN HIS FIRST START FOR THE BUCS!  And his first start since 2004.

Luke makes the players around him worse than Garcia does?  Not according to the view of SR!  In his opinion,  when Luke is running the offense, it runs smoother than when Garcia does.  You know (I know you do because you are very knowledgeable) that in that game, in his first start in the Buc offense, against our main rival, Luke led us to the 6th best offensive day in the HISTORY of the franchise!

You also want to say Luke always throws the big pick...he hasn't had but 7 starts in his entire career, so he doesn't have enough history at ALL to say he "always throws the big pick".  HE simply hasn't played enough.

That first start was also his first start since recovering from a major knee injury, and spent the entire prior season, not working out to get better, but rehabbing.

Luke has only ONE real flaw, and that is holding the ball too long.  If you are giving up on his eliminating that flaw after 7 TOTAL starts, 4 of them in 2004, I'm afraid you will never be able to wait until any other young qb develops for us.

Luke has been here, I think 3 years, and spent the middle one on IR with the knee.  He is NOT an experienced qb still making the same mistakes....like Griese is.

If Luke doesn't eliminate that flaw, he will never be a good starting qb.  If he does, he will be a probowl quality qb.....IMO.

.....just my opinion

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#40 : May 15, 2008, 08:25:16 PM

bucjoe - no contradictions. As I stated, Sean Peyton screwed up and handed that game back to us - gift wrapped. and that was his ONLY success.

Garcia has proven - time and again - that he's a winner. This year will be a challenge. I would LOVE for McCown to be the answer, now. It would mean that tragedy strikes and Garcia goes down and we have to rely on McCown - he may be the next QB of the future - but currently he's just a not ready for prime time player. Relying on him without a strong offense would be setting he and the Bucs up for disaster.

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#41 : May 15, 2008, 08:40:33 PM

Again, the NO game was not gift-wrapped and handed to us...what was handed to us was the OPPORTUNITY for us to win.  But we had to traverse 40 yards with the clock running out, the game on the line, and a young qb in his first start with us, and his first start in 3 years pulling the trigger.

In many other cities, Luke would have been the hero.  In this city, many fans don't recognize what he was able to do!

Buckeye, you and I have gone back and forth about this subject long enough for me.  I know you WANT Luke to succeed, and I understand where you are coming from.  You are a real fan, and not just wanting to argue.

I honor your opinion, and recognize it is AT LEAST as good as mine.

.....just my opinion

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#42 : May 15, 2008, 09:00:58 PM

Bucjoe,

Last year we would have been lucky to win 5 or 6 games at the most without him. This year he still has lots to offer as our starting QB. on the field. Off the field he is a great mentor and is in valuable with what he is giving our younger back ups. We still need him for a year or 2.

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#43 : May 15, 2008, 09:41:50 PM

If you remember, I posted either on this thread or another one that we should extend Garcia for 2009 at about 2.5 million to be a backup qb and help the qb coach with Luke and Josh.

Actually, I was agreeing with another poster.  I believe it was Caradoc.

Soooo as far as that goes, I agree.  I do think Garcia is valuable to the Bucs.

.....just my opinion

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#44 : May 15, 2008, 09:56:59 PM

You, and many others, also seem to ignore what Luke did AFTER the fumble was recovered.  Dude, it's not like we got the fumble on the 2 yard line.  IIRC, it was out around the 40.  Luke then drove the team down the field, with the clock running out, and threw the WINNING TD PASS shortly before the clock ran out.  IN HIS FIRST START FOR THE BUCS!  And his first start since 2004.

It was the 37. Four straight handoffs to Graham, including a two yard gain on fourth and one. Followed by two catches by Graham, including one he turned into a 21-yard gain. The Bucs ran six plays before they spiked the ball at the four, and every single time the ball went to Graham. I like Luke, but personally I have to give Graham the nod as the man who did the most on that game-winning drive.

Luke's 4-yard TD pass was a nice one, though.
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