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king_frog

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#30 : May 24, 2008, 10:20:19 AM

After reading this entire thread, I must be easy to please, as I'm still very excited about our offense this year. We have lots of weapons and solid starter at QB with quality back ups when he goes down..

dbucfan

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#31 : May 24, 2008, 10:41:36 AM

The more I read this thread.... and think about it, the less excited i am about our offensive capabilities.

You have to be in negative numbers at this point - lol


The best QB's in todays NFL are "game managers".



Game manager is an NFL term used to normally describe untalented QB's. Sort of like "poise". Shaun King was small, had no arm and couldn't read defenses, best thing they could come up with was poise. Garcia of course has a lot more talent than that but if you want a QB to just manage the game we don't need to be playing a 40 year old aged veteran to get that. We mortgaged our future at the QB position in hopes of him getting us over the top, not so he could hand the ball of and rely on the defense...... err.... I mean.... manage the game. The fact this puke choked in our only playoff game and is now whining about his contract is enough for me to send his behind on his way. 'Nuff said.

LOL - there is not a shred of logic nor viable comparison between any of the qbs on this team and the King comparison.  There is no mortgaging of the future, and this "puke" didn't choke away the playoff game.

'Nuff said - clearly - you have offered nothing - it is almost said properly...

\"A Great Coach has to have a Patient Wife, A Loyal Dog, and a Great Quarterback. . . . but not necessarily in that order\" ~ Coach Bud Grant

MBF

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#32 : May 24, 2008, 10:43:36 AM

Lots of weapons? Such as...?

A 37 year old injury prone quitter, an old Ike Hilliard, a busted Clayton, unproven Stovall, and Antonio bloody Bryant?

You ARE easy to please.

dbucfan

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#33 : May 24, 2008, 11:04:30 AM

Boy 4bucs - you sure did bring out a hot topic.  A lot of thoughts offered - some even pleasantly.  Damn few...

The overall qb position continues to improve from the '06 debacle. 

The wr position could use some help. 

The buccs improved the Oline, TE and RB.

Could still use an upgrade at QB and WR.

But name calling of players, denigating of who is on the roster and failure to acknowlegdge the improvement of the offense would seem to indicate a panic about the buccs that I simply don't share.   I guess I will just wait for Camp and Pre Season before considering belittling the team and the organization. 

\"A Great Coach has to have a Patient Wife, A Loyal Dog, and a Great Quarterback. . . . but not necessarily in that order\" ~ Coach Bud Grant

lhasara

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#34 : May 24, 2008, 12:24:52 PM

Boy 4bucs - you sure did bring out a hot topic. A lot of thoughts offered - some even pleasantly. Damn few...

The overall qb position continues to improve from the '06 debacle.

The wr position could use some help.

The buccs improved the Oline, TE and RB.

Could still use an upgrade at QB and WR.

But name calling of players, denigating of who is on the roster and failure to acknowlegdge the improvement of the offense would seem to indicate a panic about the buccs that I simply don't share. I guess I will just wait for Camp and Pre Season before considering belittling the team and the organization.

dbuc:

No name calling from me.
As always you are the voice of civility and reason, and that is why I respect your opinion so highly.

The thing that is most "above-average" for Garcia is his ability not to turn the ball over. Even then, his fumbles (2) against Det, and his Ints (3) against Jax arguably caused both of those losses. Against five playoff teams during the regular season, the most we scored was 23 against Jax to lose that game. They scored 19 points against Wash with Grads at QB, but with only 192 total yards despite six turnovers from the D. But against Sea only 6 points, Ind only 14, and Tenn only 13, although they did beat the Titans. In only one of those five games did they get more than 13 first downs. I will acknowledge that the offense was improved compared with the debacle that was 2006, however it was only minimally better than the 2005 offense with SoB and SoP at the helm. And that was with our very experienced, ?Pro-Bowl QB who is the perfect fit for this offense, and with the institution of the shotgun formation, and with at least a few highly drafted new starters on the OL( at least compared with 2005).

I understand that Garcia is our best option at present, but I too think that he is likely as good as he will get, and that it is likely downhill from here.
I also think that the Bucs have built a solid nucleus on offense, especially on the OL. (As an aside, I felt on draft day that the reason Charlotte traded in front of us in the 1st, was we may have been ready to draft Otah for LT to complete the development of our line. Just a feeling!)
They will likely peak not this year or next, but in 2010, while still young, but solidly veteran. IMHO, if Caddy does not come back or if Graham is not the answer, then the Bucs will draft the best RB available in 2009, as well as get help at WR (draft or FA). Who will play QB in 2010, when the Bucs should be in position to make a run for several years?

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dbucfan

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#35 : May 24, 2008, 01:44:17 PM

TCN - thanks for the kind words - and I wish I had an answer for whom might be the qb in 2010-11 and later.  Heck I wish I knew if he is even on the roster at this time.

There are clearly issues on the buccs o - at the skill positions.  But - for a person who believes in the following - there is little need to throw one's hands in the air in despair as so many are doing whiled chanting for change...

If I may paraphrase Chev - he once said something like "if my big fatties beat your big fatties - I like my chances of winning".

To me Chev capsulized what so many good football men have said about the keys to winning.  Run the ball, stop the run, protect your qb, and pressure their qb. 

The buccs are doing just that.  Continued building upon a solid Oline, two FA dlinemen and a 4th pick (who was rated higher by a lot of sources).  By getting the Oline to average and above the chances of an average qb performing/producing at an above average level increase, same with average rbs and wrs.  Give average skill players time and space and you win. 

Doing that lowers the required level of talent for the unit to produce.  Frankly, with the best bucc's qb, rb and wr at about average that is a good thing.  The lines are easier to get good at.  A lot more good to above average linemen are available in the draft (used to be able to include FA but that is too damn expensive nowadays) than skill position players, and skill position guys fail at a deplorable rate.

I think the buccs are building an offense that Garcia, Griese and McCown could win with.  By doing that one thing that past bucc's FO did not get done.  They are building an Oline.  By doing that they don't need an exceptional qb - they need an average qb who can run the system without many errors, making good decisions and throws.  Time is what that takes and time appears to be what the buccs' FO is determined to provide. 

I believe that the buccs coaches and FO don't give a damn about the names on the backs of the jerseys - and I don't think fans should either.  Look at how a unit plays.  Look at how they compete. 

For so many - they don't see the investment - or don't recall the investments being made on the Oline or Dline.  Or perhaps they don't get the relationship between winning the "trench battles" and the performance of the "skill" positions.

For me - Garcia will be a better player this year than last - bc of Faine, and the continued progress of the rest of the Oline (and blocking TE).  Griese will be a better qb this time around for the very same reason, as will McCown.  I don't know how McCown will play without the constant pressure in his face that he and Garcia encountered so very often last year.  I tend to believe his errors will go down.  For that reason - the improvement of the Oline - I believe his (McCown's) chances of playing are improved. 

So I believe this year there will be a qb competition.  I don't believe Garcia is #1, or Griese #2 and McCown #3 being set in stone.  I believe the staff will look at with whom does the unit play better, and who gives the buccs the best chance to win.  And I believe in two years it will be someone else - but is it McCown then or Johnson - or some other player yet to be added - who knows - and who cares.  One game at a time and one year at a time.  Prepare for future but not by sacrificing the present for the future.

But now I have taken too long to say I don't know, but I like the path of the buccs.  Sorry to any who read this post and find it to philosophical.  But I do believe Allen and Gruden are taking a philosophical approach - and they want their big fatties to beat the opposition's big fatties - every damn game.  That is the way of great teams - and that formula gave skill position players on great teams the opportunity to show it.

Thanks again for the kind words TCN - hope my post is well received.

\"A Great Coach has to have a Patient Wife, A Loyal Dog, and a Great Quarterback. . . . but not necessarily in that order\" ~ Coach Bud Grant

Madman

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#36 : May 24, 2008, 02:25:17 PM

Game manager is an NFL term used to normally describe untalented QB's.   Sort of like "poise".    Shaun King was small, had no arm and couldn't read defenses, best thing they could come up with was poise.   Garcia of course has a lot more talent than that but if you want a QB to just manage the game we don't need to be playing a 40 year old aged veteran to get that.    We mortgaged our future at the QB position in hopes of him getting us over the top, not so he could hand the ball of and rely on the defense...... err.... I mean.... manage the game.   The fact this puke choked in our only playoff game and is now whining about his contract is enough for me to send his behind on his way.   'Nuff said.

Oh boy. Patrick McIrish now posting on Pewter Report? This should get interesting.



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#37 : May 24, 2008, 02:31:54 PM

Garcia's knowledge of the system will be much better, and the line will be better.  However, he's Brad Johnson.  That would be a good thing if he was the steady, productive Brad of 02-03.  Unfortunately, I believe he is the arm-falling-off, flutterball-throwing Brad of '04.  He never had even Brad's arm strength to begin with.  His arm CLEARLY wore down pretty early in the season last year, I really can't expect that this year will be any better.



dbucfan

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#38 : May 24, 2008, 02:38:00 PM

So many have said 'doc.  But we will see if is Garcia is what you think he is, and IF he wears down - again - if he turns out to be the best chance for the buccs to win this year.  Personally - I think he showed a better arm than Brad ever did, and knowing the system with an improved Oline, I think the unit will be more productive than last year.  And if the O doesn't produce well with Garcia at qb I anticipate chances being given to both McCown and Griese - and this will happen within camp.

\"A Great Coach has to have a Patient Wife, A Loyal Dog, and a Great Quarterback. . . . but not necessarily in that order\" ~ Coach Bud Grant



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#39 : May 24, 2008, 02:53:34 PM

So many have said 'doc.  But we will see if is Garcia is what you think he is, and IF he wears down - again - if he turns out to be the best chance for the buccs to win this year.  Personally - I think he showed a better arm than Brad ever did, and knowing the system with an improved Oline, I think the unit will be more productive than last year.  And if the O doesn't produce well with Garcia at qb I anticipate chances being given to both McCown and Griese - and this will happen within camp.

Garcia's a lock to start, unless Luke has a tremendous camp.  The problem with a camp battle for me is that that is when Jeff's arm is going to be at it's best, so he'll look better in camp than he will in october.  I hope Jon takes that into consideration.  Because the 2 to 4 games in the season that we lose when Jeffs arm starts fading, but we don't pull him, are 2 to 4 games that Luke could be getting much needed experience. 

lhasara

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#40 : May 24, 2008, 02:58:34 PM

TCN - thanks for the kind words - and I wish I had an answer for whom might be the qb in 2010-11 and later. Heck I wish I knew if he is even on the roster at this time.

There are clearly issues on the buccs o - at the skill positions. But - for a person who believes in the following - there is little need to throw one's hands in the air in despair as so many are doing whiled chanting for change...

If I may paraphrase Chev - he once said something like "if my big fatties beat your big fatties - I like my chances of winning".

To me Chev capsulized what so many good football men have said about the keys to winning. Run the ball, stop the run, protect your qb, and pressure their qb.

The buccs are doing just that. Continued building upon a solid Oline, two FA dlinemen and a 4th pick (who was rated higher by a lot of sources). By getting the Oline to average and above the chances of an average qb performing/producing at an above average level increase, same with average rbs and wrs. Give average skill players time and space and you win.

Doing that lowers the required level of talent for the unit to produce. Frankly, with the best bucc's qb, rb and wr at about average that is a good thing. The lines are easier to get good at. A lot more good to above average linemen are available in the draft (used to be able to include FA but that is too damn expensive nowadays) than skill position players, and skill position guys fail at a deplorable rate.

I think the buccs are building an offense that Garcia, Griese and McCown could win with. By doing that one thing that past bucc's FO did not get done. They are building an Oline. By doing that they don't need an exceptional qb - they need an average qb who can run the system without many errors, making good decisions and throws. Time is what that takes and time appears to be what the buccs' FO is determined to provide.

I believe that the buccs coaches and FO don't give a damn about the names on the backs of the jerseys - and I don't think fans should either. Look at how a unit plays. Look at how they compete.

For so many - they don't see the investment - or don't recall the investments being made on the Oline or Dline. Or perhaps they don't get the relationship between winning the "trench battles" and the performance of the "skill" positions.

For me - Garcia will be a better player this year than last - bc of Faine, and the continued progress of the rest of the Oline (and blocking TE). Griese will be a better qb this time around for the very same reason, as will McCown. I don't know how McCown will play without the constant pressure in his face that he and Garcia encountered so very often last year. I tend to believe his errors will go down. For that reason - the improvement of the Oline - I believe his (McCown's) chances of playing are improved.

So I believe this year there will be a qb competition. I don't believe Garcia is #1, or Griese #2 and McCown #3 being set in stone. I believe the staff will look at with whom does the unit play better, and who gives the buccs the best chance to win. And I believe in two years it will be someone else - but is it McCown then or Johnson - or some other player yet to be added - who knows - and who cares. One game at a time and one year at a time. Prepare for future but not by sacrificing the present for the future.

But now I have taken too long to say I don't know, but I like the path of the buccs. Sorry to any who read this post and find it to philosophical. But I do believe Allen and Gruden are taking a philosophical approach - and they want their big fatties to beat the opposition's big fatties - every damn game. That is the way of great teams - and that formula gave skill position players on great teams the opportunity to show it.

Thanks again for the kind words TCN - hope my post is well received.

Even more thunderous applause!
I, too, am really beginning to like "our big fatties" LOL.
And IMO, those guys reach their peak at about their 4th - 6th years in the league; when experience and cohesiveness rise, before the ravages of age and injuries start to take a toll. And I agree that with good line play, that the RB's and WR's become as close to "plug n play" as you can get.
But, it sure seems that learning the QB position in Gruden's offense takes some considerable TIME, and if that QB is not already on the roster, then the Bucs will likely squander some of those special years when ALL of the other pieces may be in position, while yet another QB tries to learn the complexities of the offense. JMO.

The Crow's Nest

dbucfan

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#41 : May 24, 2008, 04:10:54 PM

So many have said 'doc. But we will see if is Garcia is what you think he is, and IF he wears down - again - if he turns out to be the best chance for the buccs to win this year. Personally - I think he showed a better arm than Brad ever did, and knowing the system with an improved Oline, I think the unit will be more productive than last year. And if the O doesn't produce well with Garcia at qb I anticipate chances being given to both McCown and Griese - and this will happen within camp.

Garcia's a lock to start, unless Luke has a tremendous camp. The problem with a camp battle for me is that that is when Jeff's arm is going to be at it's best, so he'll look better in camp than he will in october. I hope Jon takes that into consideration. Because the 2 to 4 games in the season that we lose when Jeffs arm starts fading, but we don't pull him, are 2 to 4 games that Luke could be getting much needed experience.

It is not Gruden's first dance...  he will know a lot about what he has on the way into camp - with the pads and a couple of PS games the rest will show - one way or the other, for Garcia and everyone else...  Not saying you aren't making a valid point - just saying we gotta give the coaches some credit

\"A Great Coach has to have a Patient Wife, A Loyal Dog, and a Great Quarterback. . . . but not necessarily in that order\" ~ Coach Bud Grant
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