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#30 : October 10, 2006, 12:50:41 AM

Well Simms' relation to being "Gruden's guy" seems to come and go. When he was "not the guy" Gruden didn't want him then the articles swung around for Gruden "standing on the table" for simms after last year. Now that he stinks again I've seen the "not Gruden's guys" again.
Can't help what other people say.

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#31 : October 10, 2006, 01:00:31 AM

He plays out his contract and is resigned. We HAVE our Noll, our Shula, our Landry. He's staying and we are going to win.
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#32 : October 10, 2006, 07:13:51 AM

Just so I have this straight, Gruden gets to keep his job even if he goes 2-14?

Seriously?  2-14?

At the begining of the year, the threads of "Best Buc Team Ever", "Top 3 Coaching Staff", and "Big Play Offense" threads were the norm.  Fans on here were outraged when ANY football expert or talk show even remotely said that Carolina or Atlanta was the team to beat.  This team, according to the fans on this board was that this was a supremely talented roster that was a legitimate Super Bowl team, or Play off team at absolute worst.  Gruden wasn't afraid of Reggie Bush, and the fans applauded.  Let the Saints have Reggie Bush, we have Mark Jones.

Now, 4 games into the season, it is OK to go 2-14?  What?

Great Coaches make teams better.  This team is not better.  Last Sunday, which Coach looked more in controll of the game, Peyton or Gruden?  Can anyone honestly say that in August they would have traded rosters with the Saints?  Yet a month later we are supposed to be content with just a 3 point loss to the Saints?  The Saints have a rookied HC, and we have a guy some have honestly compared to Noll and Shula, yet a 3 point loss is OK? 

We have a roster most said was superior to a team like the Saints, a "Top 3 HC", and yet we are supposed to feel that a loss is OK?  That math doesn't add up. 

I am a fan of the Bucs.  2-14 is NOT acceptable coming off an 11-5 season.  Not one bit.  I can't even imagine that a fan of the Bucs would sit back calmly and accept 2-14 with no significant changes in direction. 

Here is the reality; the draft picks and the money are considered sunk costs.  They have zero to do with any future business decision.  So, unless this is turned around, and I mean fast, Gruden either losses his job, or Allen does.  You can bank on that.

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#33 : October 10, 2006, 08:19:02 AM

Here is the reality Gruden comes in 2002 to a team that already was backed up against the cap and had pissed away 9 top draft picks not counting the Green and Anthony #1's that were spent. He got a title out of those guys. In 2003 with no real pickls to fix holes they trioed to get one more year out the current players with an already strauned cap. 2003 was a freaking mash unit of IR by week 4. 2004 was even worse with only one quality pick and a strained cap so we went after washed up and mid tier vets to try an compete but obviously it did not work and we had to cut players because of said cap. 2005 still awful cap but had draft picks and had to go with 7 first year starters. They overachieved and went 11-5 losing their starting QB. Now 2006 0-4,, still no cap toi bring in quality FA's but the picks are there-- now 12 new starters on offense in the past 20 games and the offense has shown plenty of life-- it's the defense that now needs life and who would have thought it would be this soon after a #1 D performance. This coming year Gruden and Allen will finally have cap and another full slate of draft picks. So sit back and take a look around -- the only other team to do this much mortgaging for a SB was the 9'ers and we see the state it left them in. Why are we all suprised we would have some leans years after we mortgaged for the future. It is called a rebuild for a reason.

Name me one other HC who could be better witht this team right now with ano money and losing 9 high quality picks. No one can build with that much loss.

Just for perspective look at all the talent in the NFC and the HC's in the NFC and then find out who the last NFC coach is to win a SB. What are all their excuses with teams like Chicago, Carolina, Philly, Wash, Atlanta. No NFC coach has matched what Grud did in 02 cause he is the last to win the Big Dance.

So if we can get Bellichek i am all for letting Gruden go-- but quite frankle there is no one better to replace him especially in the middle of a rebuild where he is finally putting his players in place. Just takes longer when you have no cap and missed out on several draft picks due to mgmt decisions and the previous regime who pissed them away.


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#34 : October 10, 2006, 08:44:52 AM

Well Simms' relation to being "Gruden's guy" seems to come and go. When he was "not the guy" Gruden didn't want him then the articles swung around for Gruden "standing on the table" for simms after last year. Now that he stinks again I've seen the "not Gruden's guys" again.

Simms was never his guy. Ever. He supported him and tried to get the most out of him, but you can be sure that the coach knows who fits his offense and who doesn't. The fact that he can barely contain himself when he talks about Grads should provide plenty of contrast so that even the casual fan can see the difference between his demeanor then and when he speaks/spoke of Simms.

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#35 : October 10, 2006, 08:50:36 AM

Here is the reality; the draft picks and the money are considered sunk costs.  They have zero to do with any future business decision.  So, unless this is turned around, and I mean fast, Gruden either losses his job, or Allen does.  You can bank on that.

No, the reality is that no matter what the record at the end of this season, Gruden and Allen both keep their jobs. The Glazers proved they know more about football than Rich McKay when they fired a popular and winning head coach and hired the guy they knew could win the big one for them before the window closed, despite McKay's best efforts to prevent it from happening. Trust me, they know more about football than you, too.

The Glazers realize that the Bucs are still recovering from some of the problems left in McKay's wake, and they are accounting for that. Each year that passes since his departure, however, makes any negative influences he left behind less influential and Gruden/Allen's accountability increases.

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#36 : October 10, 2006, 09:04:16 AM

I've realized over the years that the Bucs organization can be very patient at times; no matter the owner. Look how many years McKay was here. The problem becomes; when do you decide that enough is enough? Like I said before, if the Bucs indeed part ways with Gruden, I don't think it will have anything to do with Gruden's ability to coach football. Coaches who coach for many years don't just turn sour overnight. But, some situations just turn in different directions. There have been Superbowl winning coaches who have later been fired in their careers; whether on the team they won the Superbowl with or another one. There have been coaches fired who have overall winning records. I don't think a head coach is ever exempt from being fired (including Belichick). The past is there, and it's glorious. But, you don't play football in the past. You can't look at past glory days and weigh them with present failures. Those are just memories. I don't think Gruden should be fired (especially in mid-season), but I don't think people should treat him like he walks on water either. No one lives up to that. That's my opinion.


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#37 : October 10, 2006, 09:05:06 AM

If Gruden has another bad season next year or doesnt make the playoffs altogether then all options should be explored.

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#38 : October 10, 2006, 09:10:53 AM

No, the reality is that no matter what the record at the end of this season, Gruden and Allen both keep their jobs. The Glazers proved they know more about football than Rich McKay when they fired a popular and winning head coach and hired the guy they knew could win the big one for them before the window closed, despite McKay's best efforts to prevent it from happening. Trust me, they know more about football than you, too.

The Glazers realize that the Bucs are still recovering from some of the problems left in McKay's wake, and they are accounting for that. Each year that passes since his departure, however, makes any negative influences he left behind less influential and Gruden/Allen's accountability increases.



Exactly!  While we fans live and die with each win and loss, the owners have the consolation of knowing their bank account is fatter.  I'm not saying the Glazers don't care about winning - in fact they do as evidenced by Gru's hiring - but they are every bit as concerned about financial profit as they are with win/loss record.  

They also tend to see a little further into the future than we do.  As a businessman, you wouldn't risk your future viability for a somewhat better current year.  In fact, in business, you tend to lump your losses together so that the future is rosier.  To relate that to football, you may as well play your reserves to see what you have and get them experience for next year.  Theres not a whole lot of difference in a 4, 5 or 6 win year.

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#39 : October 10, 2006, 09:11:01 AM

The draft comes around every year. New players come around every year. If Gruden (or any coach for that matter) is staying mostly because of some bright young players, what coach would ever be fired? Young guns come out every year. There's no reason to fire any coach; because they just need to hold off until the draft so they can find the 'right' players for the team. No coach should ever be fired or questioned.   ;)

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#40 : October 10, 2006, 09:12:20 AM

Yeah well the PR guys have bounced back and forth on the issue several times based on how Simms is doing  and last year Gruden was beaming about simms so you're wrong that one.

No, I'm correct. Sorry.

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#41 : October 10, 2006, 11:26:59 AM

Personally, I think Gruden gets at least one more year.  Yes, even if the team goes 2-14.  If that were to happen and the team didn't show marked improvement in 2007, then I think the team would have to give serious thought to going in another direction.  Which is just my opinion, of course.

One thing that wouldn't surprise me however is if the Glazers insisted on shaking up the assistant coaching staff if the team wind up with that poor of a record.   If the team continues to show inprovement on the offensive side of the ball, I'm not sure what form that would take, but I seem to recall that Shula's firing wasn't exactly Dungy's idea.

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#42 : October 10, 2006, 11:33:05 AM

One thing that wouldn't surprise me however is if the Glazers insisted on shaking up the assistant coaching staff if the team wind up with that poor of a record.   If the team continues to show inprovement on the offensive side of the ball, I'm not sure what form that would take, but I seem to recall that Shula's firing wasn't exactly Dungy's idea.

The Glazers sought to replace the entire offensive staff. They recognized the definiciencies that plagued this team. Dungy refused, saying he would resign rather than fire all of the offensive assistants. The compromise was the elimination of Shula. The Glazers are very perceptive and have a greater understanding of this game than most know or give them credit for (I'm speaking of the sons, not Malcolm). If they get frustrated with any particular part of the team's assistant coaching staff, they will not hesitate to strongly suggest that new hires are made. Their level of frustration has to be high, however, for them to meddle at that level.

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#43 : October 10, 2006, 02:04:12 PM

2003 wasn't a MASH unit, we lost our #3 WR and our #2 CB and a load of trash otherwise on that roster, we had a lot of injured bodies but not a lot of injured bodies that mattered. You weenies would be whining in 2002 if he'd not won that we had tons of injuries that year too (Brad and McF) God, can you stop making the same old excuses for Gruden failing to perform?

He had a bad cap, newsflash, Cowher loses player after player after player and doesn't lose. Shanahan has a good cap situation? When? He lost his 2000 yard running back (whihc is more important than any loss we've had), then he lost CPortis, he filled in Jake the Fake and kept rolling along. He's built a quality defense using a reject part from our team while we gripe about crappy S play. Bellichek sheds off players (Milloy, Law, OLlinemen at a furious rate, Branch, McGinnest) and what is his record this year? People want to put Gruden in a category with the best of the best coaches and you can't do it without out and out making crap up. All coaches have bad caps, lose players but the good ones, I mean the REALLy good ones don't cry about it and don't lose. They find a way to get by and win whihc is something that, if Gruden wants to be "the man" he needs to start doing. He has more losing records in fewer seasons than any of those coaches.

I'm always shocked that "real" fans of the team are so willing to suffer craptastic seasons and make excuses for Gruden. I think some of you aren't Bucs fans but Gruden fans. You'd rather see Gruden stay than the team win.

2003 had 16 players on IR by year end. You dont call that a mash unit.

Cowhere and Bellichek have never been against the cap cause they have lost good players making big money and they replaced with other quality FA's because they had the money- They also were able to plug young guys in that came from top round picks. Gruden was missing 9 when he got here. In fact Bellichek covets top round picks and works plenty of trades to rebuild, something our former mgmt did not do. As for Shanny he has been against the cap but never lacked the draft picks-- he also had a few down years in there too. As for Portis he traded him -- and when has running behind a Denver OL ever been a problem they just plug whoever they want there.

But why argue what the other teams and their coaches have done-- they have never been with out 9 top quality picks and a cap hell at the same time. It's not an excuse it's a fact-- takes longer to build when you have both those equations. Most football fans realize it. Like I said the only other team that was mortgaged as much as we were in recent years is the 9'ers and they are just starting to claw there way out with some promise. Gruden obviously has the offense built and it loooked it's best with a rookie--- tell me thats not coaching at it's finest. The defense needs to be rebuilt now -- but that wasn't obvious coming off last season where they were the # 1 unit in the league yet this year can't seem to tackle. Sure Gruden bears responsibility-- but you hindsight 20/20 goofs sure like to pile on. How do you propose he saw that coming and should be fired for it- Should Monte be firewd as well-- afterall it's his squad that is deficient.

Some of u guys just hate Grduen and come hell or high water no matter the circumstances just want change for the sake of change.


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#44 : October 10, 2006, 04:15:09 PM

The Glazers sought to replace the entire offensive staff. They recognized the definiciencies that plagued this team. Dungy refused, saying he would resign rather than fire all of the offensive assistants. The compromise was the elimination of Shula. The Glazers are very perceptive and have a greater understanding of this game than most know or give them credit for (I'm speaking of the sons, not Malcolm). If they get frustrated with any particular part of the team's assistant coaching staff, they will not hesitate to strongly suggest that new hires are made. Their level of frustration has to be high, however, for them to meddle at that level.


I realize that.  My point was that I could see the Glazers' frustration being rather high if it came down to a 2-14 season.  (Which I'm not conceding will happen, but just talking in hypotheticals.)  I could, in theory, see them jumping on the "Gruden needs an offensive coordinator" bandwagon as that's a fairly popular meme these days.  But then, if the offense continues to improve and isn't the reason we finished with such a record, well, it would make a great deal less sense.
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