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TURBO

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: December 13, 2006, 01:18:10 PM

And what's your point? Is there one doggone point here that hasn't been rehashed over and over and over? ONE!!???!!!
No, of course not. So why bring it up? I tell you why. The Gruden haters have it as their mission to ANNOY the heck out of those who once supported Gruden. We all see the failure. What do you want us to do, cry?
The term ''genius'' was used by a very small group of writers or fans. Even after we won, nobody thought that way. He did a wonderful job vs. Philly, even better job vs. Oakland. But genius? No, just a great young coach. So why piss all over any of us who enjoyed it and wanted to celebrate the guy?
I'll tell you why. Because some resented Dungy's ouster. Some wanted to see him fail as if to make things right with Dungy.
Well, I sat in the cold in Philadelphia those two years we were humiliated in 2000 and 2001. Contrary to the myths spread here, we were FAVORED the first year. I can give you a link to a pre-game preview if you disbelieve. We were the veteran team in 2000 and Philly was the new guy on the block and they HUMILIATED us. A whole year of living with that and we lost even WORSE the next year. And voila, Dungy was gone.
Yeah, he made the playoffs three of four years. Yeah, he built most of what we had up, along with McKay. But the team that left the field in Philadelphia after a 31-9 slaparound in the 2001 playoffs didn't resemble a Super Bowl champion in any way. Gruden brought in some good players, brought in new energy, got some luck (see Green Bay's injuries, McNabb's injury), a little help (Jets over Packers, NE over Miami) and won the whole thing.
So what's it mean now? We paid the piper for all those picks given up, all the cap space sacrificed both ahead of time (Gramatica, Rice, etc.), in an attempt to bounce back unwisely (Deese, Stinchcomb, Garner, etc.) and now have been unlucky to boot.
Gruden has seen every ounce of dignity stripped away and we are a joke again. Happy? Enjoy his failure?
A real fan is thankful to Dungy for his part, thankful to Jon for his part, thankful (even beyond the anger) to McKay too. But they don't rub salt in the wounds of their Buccaneer brethren. It's gonna be a long road back. It might take MANY years. We will either engross ourselves in self-pity and self-loathing or climb out of this thing and find glory again.
I choose glory.

Jerseybucfan nailed it in another thread, I thought it should stand on it's own!


Rusty

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#1 : December 13, 2006, 01:25:00 PM

Perfect perspective. I concur.

                \'Every day above ground is a good day\'

dalbuc

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#2 : December 13, 2006, 01:54:59 PM

Yeah well except he is almost 100 % wrong but I guess for the Grudenista that might reflect their view of reality.

"I tell you why. The Gruden haters have it as their mission to ANNOY the heck out of those who once supported Gruden." Yeah, that's my goal at least, I like to piss off nameless, faceless people that, by and large, if they dropped dead tomorrow I'd never miss - sorry folks it is true but don't feel special thousands of people will die while I post this and I don't miss them either.

"So why piss all over any of us who enjoyed it and wanted to celebrate the guy?" Who is pissing over the SB win <insert Dungy's team whihc is a bug-a-boo much more about Grudenista strawmen than anything else>? The SB win was greatness, the coaching job in those 3 games was friggin' brilliant. Any critique of Gruden isn't about then, it is about now.

"I'll tell you why. Because some resented Dungy's ouster. Some wanted to see him fail as if to make things right with Dungy." Again, does anyone really dreg up Dungy but the huggers? I think I saw 2 or 3 Dungy sucks threads after we got whipped Sunday, all started by easy to spot Grudenista. There's an obsession but it seems to run the other direction. I think Gruden has done a craptastic job with the offense and I think that not because I love Dungy but because it was the same offensive ineptitude that I wanted to fire him for.

"We will either engross ourselves in self-pity and self-loathing or climb out of this thing and find glory again." Of course this is sort of the rally around the flag or my country right or wrong argument writ into sports. Questioning the President isn't a bad thing, it is not self-loathing it is a reasonable question about rather he's gonna "find glory again". If I can say that about the President of the USA then I think a football team HC can at least garner the same level of scrutiny.

All posts are opinions in case you are too stupid to figure that out on your own without me saying it over and over.

HereComesDaBoom

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#3 : December 13, 2006, 01:36:40 PM

Bravo! Well said.

bOOm

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#4 : December 13, 2006, 02:03:38 PM

It is not a conflict about the coach - it is a conflict about posters.

There is a large amount of truth in what Jersey says as well as in Dal's response.  But for to many it is on who they like(d) - not what is happening and why. 

I have distain for those posts which fail to consider how the bucs got into the cap situation, loss of draft choices and injuries that have showed how shallow the depth on this team really is.  By the same token I am at a loss to understand many of the cuts that took place this year which seemed so very wrong. 

There is plenty of blame/responsibility to go around, but it is a shared responsiblity among many, including Gruden/Allen, Gruden/McKay, and Dungy/McKay. 

All that said, this team is not nearly as bad as it currently looks and the opportunities for improvement via FA and the draft position is there.  How well those operations are handled will dictate the future of the organization - not carping about Dungy lovers and Grudenistas.  JMHO. 

\"A Great Coach has to have a Patient Wife, A Loyal Dog, and a Great Quarterback. . . . but not necessarily in that order\" ~ Coach Bud Grant

shall555

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#5 : December 13, 2006, 02:10:55 PM

Great post from JerseyBucs! The last sentence reminded me of Al Pacino's lockerroom speech in Any Given Sunday. LOL.

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#6 : December 13, 2006, 02:16:48 PM

Who said Gruden was an offensive genius? Its a fair question. 


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#7 : December 13, 2006, 02:19:58 PM

The media designated him a football genius, just like they did with Brian Billick, Mike Holmgren and others. 

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#8 : December 13, 2006, 02:22:45 PM

Who said Gruden was an offensive genius? Its a fair question. 

Why? Who cares? Dungy wasn't an "offensive genius" but his offenses stunk and he got fired. Gruden is the HC and OC of a team that sucks rocks on offense. Don't worry about labels because rather anyone called him an OG or not doesn't matter, the results on the field for 5 years matter. Not because he's a"genius" but because those results aren't acceptable in the NFL now anymore than they were in 2001.

All posts are opinions in case you are too stupid to figure that out on your own without me saying it over and over.

OpTiOnMaStA

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#9 : December 13, 2006, 02:26:40 PM

I will agree with both sides here. Gruden did a great job during the SB run, and Gruden at times has done a really good job as a coach here. Unfortunately, the team that he has built is not good right now, and doesn't look like it is getting any better. The offense is terrible. The offense wasn't that good last year, either. It was still the defense that carried this team all the way through the season, and the defense is still better than the offense despite being at the absolute waning moments of its existance together.

Gruden did a good job in the past, but these last few years have been heartache (besides 2005). I think he will be here next year, but he has got to produce.

I am just tired of all the hate on both sides. You can criticize but you don't need to hate.

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#10 : December 13, 2006, 02:34:12 PM

The offense is terrible because you have a sixth round rookie from Toledo at QB trying to run one of the most complicated offenses in the league.  Throw in a couple rookie lineman on the right hand side, an injury to Buenning that has kept him out of all but a few games (where the running yardage went up) and you have a perfect storm.

The jury is out on whether Gruden/Allen can get the necessary pieces to run Gruden's offense, which has worked before very well.  If he fails on the first part because of inability to find and develop young players then he will be canned.  If he has failed because of all the constraints that this team has had then it would be a mistake to fire him.

No question that they took a huge gamble at the QB position but that was not by choice but rather a function of severe cap constraints last offseason.

I still believe Gruden knows how to scheme on offense as well as anyone but without the right mix of players it won't work.

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#11 : December 13, 2006, 02:38:34 PM

Gruden was a good coach, is a good coach and always will be a good coach. You need the horses.  When he gets some again, he'll win. The Glazers know that too. Is 'The Chin' Cowher a bad coach now. I think not. Have some perspective, put this year in it's proper context and let the process take it's course. The vitriol spewed for a guy who has won 1 Super Bowl and 2 conference championships in 4.5 years is amazing. When Lombardi went to the Redskins and lost was he a bad coach too. You either are or aren't a good coach. Gruden has proven that many times. deal with the facts and less emotion.

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#12 : December 13, 2006, 02:52:26 PM

I, too, find agreement is both sides. What i'm amazed at are those that find Gruden blameless in the state of this team. Though he's not solely responsible, a great amount of this teams ineptness falls on his shoulders. We aren't the only team with injuries or youth on the offensive side of the ball(his area of expertise) yet we are absolutely terrible and if Gruden was simply head coach and someone else was OC, i think after 5 yrs, that OC would be fired.

The offense is terrible because you have a sixth round rookie from Toledo at QB trying to run one of the most complicated offenses in the league.

This statement brings to mind another subject..... why does the offense have to be so damned complicated? If you are so concerned about youth on that side of the ball, then simplify it.

BUCFAN4LIFE

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#13 : December 13, 2006, 05:44:47 PM

So if we all agree that he is a good coach but hasn't had the cap or draft picks to get true horses in here--why cant we all agree that he should at least get another year and all STFU about the current season and all the bashing. Everyone knows he has to bare to the blame for it-- Everyone also knows if he and Allen had 9 top draft picks that were lost and a cap that wasn't mortgaged this wouldn't be his team either. Someone said it's the team he built-- no it's not-- it is the team he is trying to construct--think about it would he have liked to have had Orlando Pace or Anthony Davis. And sure i know the cap says you can't have the probowl roster, but still he hasn't had a whole lot to work with. And while folks will bring up Deese et al. those were mid tier stop gaps at best-- hell their salaries didn't even add up to McFarland who Gruden was contract strapped with. Has he made personel mistakes sure he has -- Oben and Jones should have stuck before Deese and Garner -- but then again who knew a foot injury would side line Deese and Garner would blow his good knee.

I personally like Grduen cause I can see he is a fiery coach who hates to lose and he has been on the wiinging side for more than he hasn't. Good HC's are the ones that do build teams that win back to back to back titles just like his Raiders team did that he inherited at 4-12. That oiffense was crap and all it took was some FA dollars and some drafts to turn it around and he and Allen did just that. I hope he can do it for TB and seeing what he got out of a rapidly closing window in 02 and then got in 05 with the youngest offense in the league-- I see upside---afterall he reached a pinnacle not many can lay claim to.

I can also see his faults. But for me they dont outweigh the potential and quite honestly I can't think of a HC out there that could have done much better with this team-- Sure maybe a few more meaningless wins but I doubt any other HC could have taken this team with the injuries and funk and had them playoff bound, and they surely wouldn't with a rookie QB just look at the few that are trying that right now.

So while i agree their are truths to both sides -- the thing that pisses me off is the sheer insult on your HC that he sucks or whatever hatred when he has proven he can be a damn good coach and just last year was. A simple I dont like him would do and back that up. Hell Dalbuc is one of the few that have actually made good arguments while Grudens time may be up-- I just disagree with his opinion but thats what intelligent MB discussions are for-- not this change for the sake of change and he sucks -- it's pure hate speculation at best.


Itchalot

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#14 : December 13, 2006, 05:51:54 PM

Who said Gruden was an offensive genius? Its a fair question.

Why? Who cares?
The person who started this thread, and every other person who says "Gruden's an offense genius yeah right."  Obviously it bothers them that somebody called Gruden an offensive genius.  So they must have heard somebody call him that, right? 

"The media"?  People?  They?  Who is the they in "They say Gruden is an offensive genius"?  This is still an issue so somebody must have heard it from somebody.  We deserve to know who it is.

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