POST of the YEAR! (gruden topic)

[karen anderson]

JBF---a trekie?? Me, too. One of the original episodes. Mr Spock rocks.

[MiltonMack21]

Gruden was a good coach, is a good coach and always will be a good coach. You need the horses.

Agreed. End of discussion. This goes for all good coaches. You dont forget how to coach.

It isn't that he has forgotten how to coach, his message is old and stale and the players see it doesn't have an end result. So either you need to change all the players (See Tennessee and Pittsburgh) or you change the coach (See Kansas City when Schottenhiemer left).

[dalbuc]

What will we be on by then, our 23rd Rocky movie?

Rocky fights his colostomy bag at that point?

[jerseybucsfan]

I love a lot of the old shows, Karen - original Star Trek, first and second Twilight Zone, Prisoner, Avengers, Thriller ... we might need Boris Karloff to do the postgame show this week.

[karen anderson]

Rod Serling--it's a lot like the Twilight Zone around here.

[jerseybucsfan]

Is Gru ''The Obsolete Man'' or one of ''Five Characters in Search of an Exit?''

[karen anderson]

LOL!

[mjpwooo]

The truth is always somewhere in the middle with these things.  Gruden isn't as bad as some believe, nor is he as great as others think he is.  I side a bit with TURBO.  Gruden is very good at what he does.  Anyone here on this board that claims otherwise I'm sure has NFL coaching experience.  He's not the greatest, but very good at what he does.  He's had a $hit year this year, too many over the last few years.  He's got to prove he can turn this around, and that will start this offseason.  I do not believe he'll be fired at the end of this season, regardless of record.

Is it so hard for those extremists to see that both sides here have real merit?

[BUCFAN4LIFE]

Gruden was a good coach, is a good coach and always will be a good coach. You need the horses.

Agreed. End of discussion. This goes for all good coaches. You dont forget how to coach.

It isn't that he has forgotten how to coach, his message is old and stale and the players see it doesn't have an end result. So either you need to change all the players (See Tennessee and Pittsburgh) or you change the coach (See Kansas City when Schottenhiemer left).

Yeah our players missed the end result of a SB with him and a divisional title- and if Schottenheimers players were that hard up -- history tells us the players dont know a whole lot cause that team has only matched his single season production once since he left and he only had one losing season his entire decade with the team and they made the playoffs 7/10 years. Fans called for his head then-- he stepped down and they haven't accomplished anything more since.

From the sound of our players interviews they know exactly what ails them and it isn't coaching from their recollection of this seasons-- it's injuries and a young team.

[MiltonMack21]

Gruden was a good coach, is a good coach and always will be a good coach. You need the horses.

Agreed. End of discussion. This goes for all good coaches. You dont forget how to coach.

It isn't that he has forgotten how to coach, his message is old and stale and the players see it doesn't have an end result. So either you need to change all the players (See Tennessee and Pittsburgh) or you change the coach (See Kansas City when Schottenhiemer left).

Yeah our players missed the end result of a SB with him and a divisional title- and if Schottenheimers players were that hard up -- history tells us the players dont know a whole lot cause that team has only matched his single season production once since he left and he only had one losing season his entire decade with the team and they made the playoffs 7/10 years. Fans called for his head then-- he stepped down and they haven't accomplished anything more since.

From the sound of our players interviews they know exactly what ails them and it isn't coaching from their recollection of this seasons-- it's injuries and a young team.

By the way.. thats not what completely got Schottenheimer fired. His was more along the lines of bringing in bad character players  (Bam Morris, Tamarick Vanover, Andre Rison). Everytime I listen to the Barber Shop on Sirius, Ronde sounds defeated. Now considering the professionals we have on our team (Brooks, Barber, Quarles) do you REALLY think they are going to call out Gruden publicly? We don't have a TO or Randy Moss, we have a group of class guys. So what they say to the media could be MUCH different than how they REALLY feel about Gruden. Our result was 4 years ago... No playoff wins since then, an offense that has only gotten worse. Heck there is no need to rehash any of it, I think he needs to be fired you are a fan of his and cannot be convinced he doesn't have what it takes to turn it around.

[BornaBuc47]

Gruden's had five years to get this team rolling. He's had plenty of opportunities to bring in free agents and plenty of draftpicks. He's turned us back into the laughing stock of the league. Imagine if we still had Lynch, McCardell, Sapp and others who all but McCardell said they would sign for less. These are choices that were made by Gruden in spite of popular public opinion and total disbelief. Imagine if we actually ran Alstott like we did in 2002 against Cleveland. I'm not saying that's the answer, what I'm saying is that Gruden is completely unwilling to find out if it is. That's what pisses me and others off. His unwillingness to try and WIN AT ALL COSTS. He'd rather lose his way then win ours. Kinda like white men can't jump.

[Itchalot]

Gruden has had three years.  Here are the facts that you already know, Bornabuc.   Grudens first year he won a Superbowl. The second year was putting all efforts and money on trying to repeat, and finding out that we couldn't. At the time practically every Buc fan from Rich McKay on down to the smallest knucklehead Bornabuc fan thought we had a dynasty going.

  Then the third year was time to try to rebuild, and that wasn't so easy with the big contracts left over from the dynasty building of McKay squeezed the cap, and the young players and draft picks that weren't there from the Gruden, KJ,  and Kenyatta deals. 

That doesn't excuse Gruden because there are plenty of examples in the NFL where coaches have taken lemons and made lemonade.  There rarely is an example where everything goes right for a coach.   Gruden's revamping hasn't led to positive results so far, and in the imperfect world of the NFL you don't get to do things on your timetable. You get the timetable of the NFL which stands for "Not for long."

But the fact remains that these simple, indisputable, undebatable, irrefutable facts are purposefully ignored by you and others of your ilk, Bornabuc.  You know them, and you ignore them, ignoring the facts when they don't suit your argument. That means that you are nothing but a hot air spewing flamer with no credibility.   Base your arguments on the facts and then go from there and maybe you will get some credibility, but I am not holding my breath for that.

[TURBO]

Imagine if we actually ran Alstott like we did in 2002...

Maybe we can also get Doug Williams to step in , I'm sure he can still play like he did in 1979...

UUGGHH!

 [banghead]

 BornaBuc I agree! And Turbo here's a FACT-------------We are 3-10 and have had how many losing seasons? How long does 1 SB win last? If you happy with that for a 5-10 yr span then I cant argue..........

It isn't that he has forgotten how to coach, his message is old and stale and the players see it doesn't have an end result. So either you need to change all the players (See Tennessee and Pittsburgh) or you change the coach (See Kansas City when Schottenhiemer left).

Old and stale yet we won the division last year and really overacieved (has to be credited to coaching) when this team was supposed to be a celler dweller in 2005. You arent on the BUcs team, who are you to say his message is old and stale. There are many Bucs players who openly defend Gruden and discuss how they like him.