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ufojoe

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: June 14, 2008, 11:17:49 AM

  I do believe that a Lee Strobel book would do Joe wonders.  "The Case For A Creator."  A great book for those who are "enlightned" to see that no matter how far we advance the intelligence of mankind, we will never grasp the awesome wonder of God. 

Well, since I already suspect there is a Creator, I don't know why I would need to read it. The problem ypu
have with me is that I don't believe in YOUR idea of a Creator.

FYI, I already read Strobel's book, "The Case for Christ."

And I'm still not a believer. ;)  I thought his arguments were weak.

BTW, Thomas, I am NOT a former Christian. Never was. I was forced to go to those churches and went
to the front of the church to accept Jesus twice due to fear and peer pressure. And I felt nothing. That
was at ages 15 and 16. I documented two experiences in another thread.

I'll share them again here:

* * * * * * * * * *

Or, how about the time (1980) I was in my born again church growing up and they asked if the teens
(it was teen retreat weekend) wanted to come up and accept Jesus. I had just spent the entire weekend
with these folks (I missed the Lake Placid USA/USSR game because of it!) and saw all of my new friends
going up to get "saved." Even though I didn't buy into the Jesus stuff, I still felt the pressure to follow
my peers and the mob. I don't remember anything past that. Maybe I WAS saved and I blacked it out?

Or, the time I went to pick my Mom up at this born again women's retreat. It was the last day and
they were offering salvation to anybody who wanted to come up to the front of the place where
the pastor was doing his saving thing. I really didn't want to go, but everybody else was so I figured
I would go too. Not sure if part of me was afraid of the hell tactic they were using. I don't remember.
But I do remember that they were pushing the "don't left behind" angle.

Any way, I went up and the guy was laying his hands on people and people were flopping over
and passing out and being "slain in the holy spirit." The guy got to me and put his hand on
my forehead. I lost my balance and started to fall backwards. Well, I just went with it. There were
people standing behind me in case that happened. Apparently, that's the common reaction to
the "power." They gently placed me on the ground.

So, I'm laying there and I'm waiting to see if I feel anything. After a couple of minutes, I felt
nothing. No power. No light. No holiness. So, I thought, "I don't want to get right up and tell
everybody that I just lost my balance. And I don't want to make the pastor look bad." So I
just laid there for ten minutes or so. When I finally got up, my family was so excited. My
Mom asked me how it felt. I waited until we got back home to give her the bad news.
But she refused to believe me. "You experienced the holy spirit but you refuse to admit
it!," she said.

Almost 30 years later, she laughs about it when I tell the story. I think she finally believes
me.


ufojoe

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#1 : June 13, 2008, 01:07:22 AM

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/uknews/2111174/Intelligent-people-%27less-likely-to-believe-in-God%27.html

Intelligent people 'less likely to believe in God'
By Graeme Paton, Education Editor

Last updated: 2:57 PM BST 12/06/2008

People with higher IQs are less likely to believe in God, according to a new study.

Professor Richard Lynn, emeritus professor of psychology at Ulster University, said many more members of the "intellectual elite" considered themselves atheists than the national average.

A decline in religious observance over the last century was directly linked to a rise in average intelligence, he claimed.

But the conclusions - in a paper for the academic journal Intelligence - have been branded "simplistic" by critics.

Professor Lynn, who has provoked controversy in the past with research linking intelligence to race and sex, said university academics were less likely to believe in God than almost anyone else.

A survey of Royal Society fellows found that only 3.3 per cent believed in God - at a time when 68.5 per cent of the general UK population described themselves as believers.

A separate poll in the 90s found only seven per cent of members of the American National Academy of Sciences believed in God.

Professor Lynn said most primary school children believed in God, but as they entered adolescence - and their intelligence increased - many started to have doubts.

He told Times Higher Education magazine: "Why should fewer academics believe in God than the general population? I believe it is simply a matter of the IQ. Academics have higher IQs than the general population. Several Gallup poll studies of the general population have shown that those with higher IQs tend not to believe in God."

He said religious belief had declined across 137 developed nations in the 20th century at the same time as people became more intelligent.

But Professor Gordon Lynch, director of the Centre for Religion and Contemporary Society at Birkbeck College, London, said it failed to take account of a complex range of social, economic and historical factors.

"Linking religious belief and intelligence in this way could reflect a dangerous trend, developing a simplistic characterisation of religion as primitive, which - while we are trying to deal with very complex issues of religious and cultural pluralism - is perhaps not the most helpful response," he said.

Dr Alistair McFadyen, senior lecturer in Christian theology at Leeds University, said the conclusion had "a slight tinge of Western cultural imperialism as well as an anti-religious sentiment".

Dr David Hardman, principal lecturer in learning development at London Metropolitan University, said: "It is very difficult to conduct true experiments that would explicate a causal relationship between IQ and religious belief. Nonetheless, there is evidence from other domains that higher levels of intelligence are associated with a greater ability - or perhaps willingness - to question and overturn strongly felt institutions."


mjs020294

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#2 : June 13, 2008, 01:58:27 AM

Interesting...although I expect a backlash from the bible crowd in .....3.......2.......1....


escobar

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#3 : June 13, 2008, 02:55:16 AM

Many "intelligent" people I know also have very large ego's. People with ego's tend to believe they can do everything on their own and they always know what's best for them. In short, it doesn't surprise me (if this study has any merit) that people considered "intelligent" don't believe in God, for that would be admitting something else might be the cause of their success/intelligence.

I'm also not saying that everyone with a high IQ falls under this description, many do I'm sure, but not all.



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#4 : June 13, 2008, 02:59:24 AM

Oh, this one is easy guys.

1 Corinthians 1:26-31 (English Standard Version)
 
 "For consider your calling, brothers: not many of you were wise according to worldly standards, not many were powerful, not many were of noble birth. But God chose what is foolish in the world to shame the wise; God chose what is weak in the world to shame the strong; God chose what is low and despised in the world, even things that are not, to bring to nothing things that are, so that no human being might boast in the presence of God. And because of him you are in Christ Jesus, who became to us wisdom from God, righteousness and sanctification and redemption, so that, as it is written, "Let the one who boasts, boast in the Lord.""


keeponbucn

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#5 : June 13, 2008, 08:14:35 AM

Good find joe, makes perfect sense.

I don't believe in the big pimp upstairs

bradentonian

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#6 : June 13, 2008, 08:35:31 AM

http://www.the-brights.net/


hoodsbucs

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#7 : June 13, 2008, 09:12:04 AM

I dont even consider myself smart, but I guess the studies do have a point...

Biggs3535

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#8 : June 13, 2008, 09:58:02 AM

Quote
Dr David Hardman, principal lecturer in learning development at London Metropolitan University, said: "It is very difficult to conduct true experiments that would explicate a causal relationship between IQ and religious belief. Nonetheless, there is evidence from other domains that higher levels of intelligence are associated with a greater ability - or perhaps willingness - to question and overturn strongly felt institutions."

That statement should be what is gleaned from the article.

You can't really find a relationship between the two, but the more educated folks are subject to many other theories; so they question more.  That is a good thing.  Find out all the information you can and make your decision.  I find many people are turned off by religion because of experiences with people who call themselves Christians, but don't truly act like a Christian.

I also think another factor here is the human element of always wanting to be in control and not wanting to submit to a higher authority.  Just a personal hypothesis of mine...


BucNative

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#9 : June 13, 2008, 10:20:54 AM

mtnbucman that is the perfect scripture for this topic.  In short, just because people with a higher IQ are less likely to believe in God doesn't mean that they're right.

It stands to reason that a person that dedicates themselves to the building up of their own intellect will think that they're own intellect is God.  That is, in fact, what is happening with these people.  They believe that they're mind and they're ability to reason is the ultimate authority in the world, because thats all that they rely on in life.  That's just arrogance. 

BucsGuru

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#10 : June 13, 2008, 10:22:01 AM

We have seen this thread before.
I agree wholeheartedly that intelligent people are less likely to believe in God.  How we define intelligence should be noted.  True wisdom comes from the Lord.  Man can only be self taught so much.  It makes perfect sense to believe that if a person becomes more knowledgable of the world, the less likely he will believe in it's creator.  
I had a conversation with an atheist the other day.  She stated that she did not need to believe in the Bible to have morals such as not lying, cheating, killing, etc.
I then asked her where did she think we humans conceived the idea of morals to begin with?  Did we just through trial and error realize things were either right or wrong?  Or did the originate from law, commandments from God?  Of course she stated that we just realized we were doing wrong.  
I believe it would be fascinating to go and communicate with the tribe that was discovered a couple of weeks ago that has had no contact with man.  Let's see what their morals are?  If they kill a child at 2 years old to provide a sacrifice to the god of testosterone so that male tribesman can please themselves more, is this right or wrong?  To them, it's right since they do not know law.  And this will never end until law is introduced to them.  
IMO, the more "intelligent" we become, the more we become less like God created us to be, and more like these tribesman.  We revert back to our selfish ways, wanting to be dominant.  Someone asked me why I didn't go to seminary, and my asnwer is simple.  I will rely on the Holy Spirit to be my teacher, rather than man who not only in the secular world, but in the religious world, attempts to teach above the Lord.  

JavaBuc

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#11 : June 13, 2008, 10:24:10 AM

I've never met an uneducated person who does not believe in God.

Biggs3535

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#12 : June 13, 2008, 10:25:28 AM

I've never met an uneducated person who does not believe in God.

Holy crap, I have!


keeponbucn

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#13 : June 13, 2008, 10:31:59 AM

True wisdom comes from the Lord. 


Ugh, no it doesn't.

JavaBuc

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#14 : June 13, 2008, 10:33:26 AM

True wisdom comes from the Lord.


Ugh, no it doesn't.

Maybe he meant Allah.
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