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dalbuc

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#30 : December 19, 2006, 11:28:47 AM

Even assuming the Bucs did not re-sign Hovan I am still not seeing how the Bucs would be able to compete for Brees' services compared to what the Saints could muster.  That is like showing up to a gun fight with just your two fists.  :D

Brees deal was heavily backloaded into year #2. The Saints were worried about the shoulder and wanted to cover themselves. We could have basically matched the offer as it is and then if they wanted to escalte that is where the Hovan money could get tossed into the equation.

All posts are opinions in case you are too stupid to figure that out on your own without me saying it over and over.
If you think Manziel is the best QB in this draft I can safely assume you are an idiot and will treat you as such.

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#31 : December 19, 2006, 11:29:28 AM

Most of these articles are pure crap, and I agree that the hate should stop. The reporters should know the facts about the team, the salary cap, etc. before they go and write things that just aren't true, just as much of this article is a stretch of the truth.

One thing, however, that I will say is that there are some parts of this article which are very true. Gruden is an excuse maker. He says he isn't, but that is a lie. He makes excuses all the time and then he offers a little line about how he has to coach better and we have to play better. Well, anybody who has watched any games this season knows that he needs to coach better, he needs to hire an offensive coordinator, actually, and that his players need to execute better. Maybe he could offer a little more insight so that we know what direction this team is headed because that is why a lot of the fans and media, in my opinion, are after him. He gives no indication about the direction the team is headed.

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#32 : December 19, 2006, 11:30:16 AM

By the above standard, all teams suck at personnel evaluation. All of them. You can look at any team's roster and point out players that they've kept they should have cut, and players the cut that they should have kept. No team is exempt on that list. Not one.

And to further the point, check out the draft. If teams were flawless in personnel evaluation, then there would be no first round busts. None. And yet there are hundreds of high draft picks who turn into wasted selections, and conversely hundreds of players picked late in the draft who turn out to be first round talents.

All teams are included. There are no exceptions.

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#33 : December 19, 2006, 11:30:28 AM

Having Jones didn't stop Chicago from spending a high pick on a RB.

I'm not defining the stupid of other teams, Jones was 1300 yards of offense and notably caught 56 balls so wow, an rB who can catch.

True but I do not know what Jerry Angelo was thinking with that.  So far Jones has been overlooked with every team he has been on so this does not be suprise me. Thinking about it a bit more Pittman "beat out" Jones twice no? But yeah I never understood why Pittman started over Jones.


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#34 : December 19, 2006, 11:30:36 AM

The decision on Jones becomes a cascading problem because we then had to go use a high pick on Caddy instead of on Merriman or Ware, for example. Each decision is a ripple that causes other problems.


I agree, and I said almost that exact thing a few days ago. I don't want to see the same thing happen again, and our QB situation looks like the next one that could be close.

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#35 : December 19, 2006, 11:31:46 AM

Brees deal was heavily backloaded into year #2. The Saints were worried about the shoulder and wanted to cover themselves. We could have basically matched the offer as it is and then if they wanted to escalte that is where the Hovan money could get tossed into the equation.

So you're saying that Brees wanted to come play in Tampa above all other choices?

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#36 : December 19, 2006, 11:33:53 AM

Even assuming the Bucs did not re-sign Hovan I am still not seeing how the Bucs would be able to compete for Brees' services compared to what the Saints could muster.  That is like showing up to a gun fight with just your two fists.  :D

Brees deal was heavily backloaded into year #2. The Saints were worried about the shoulder and wanted to cover themselves. We could have basically matched the offer as it is and then if they wanted to escalte that is where the Hovan money could get tossed into the equation.

And despite this effort/push by the Bucs.... Brees would still be a Saint,  a few million dollar richer as a result, and Hovan possibliy not a Buc.  Sure nothing wrong trying to upgrade the QB spot if you have to let a player like Hovan go but at the same time you have to have some of the odds stacked on your side not against you to take that kind of gamble.  Is it a miscalculation about Simms'? Maybe then again his price tag at the time seemed reasonable for a young starter that was not exactly 16 game proven and he was on a one year trial run anyways.




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#37 : December 19, 2006, 11:39:03 AM

The decision on Jones becomes a cascading problem because we then had to go use a high pick on Caddy instead of on Merriman or Ware, for example.

Having Jones didn't stop Chicago from spending a high pick on a RB.


Chicago's decision to draft Benson had nothing to do with Jones not being a great player.  It was because they were changing offensive schemes.  Where the previous offense demanded a Faulk-type dual-threat, the new offensive style demanded a hard-nosed downhill runner.  The picked up Benson because they didn't think Jones would be a fit.  He obviously proved them wrong.  I don't think the same would have applied here, where Gruden's GCO works best with the dual-threat type back.


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#38 : December 19, 2006, 11:41:00 AM

True but I would not classify Carnell a dual threat type back yet though.
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#39 : December 19, 2006, 11:41:19 AM

Look, bottom line is that there has been $$$$. It is all in how we've allocated it. We've seen that given structures on Brees' contract we could have made a play for him. We didn't. Heck, we spent $$$$ on Hovan that we could have devoted to Brees. Anyone think Brees > Hovan? Yeah, thought so. We didn't go after any FA QB's not out of money problems but out of Simms being "the man". That isn't a cap problem, it is a player evaluation problem.

Jones wanted to be the feature and our hestitation to make him the feature was......Pittman? Really? No, you are kidding me right? Oh, no you aren't. The decision on Jones becomes a cascading problem because we then had to go use a high pick on Caddy instead of on Merriman or Ware, for example. Each decision is a ripple that causes other problems.

We sign Steussie and Deese to deals that are the same as what Jeno James gets. James is a solid younger OG down in MIA right now, not getting him means that the OG psiotions stays in flux and we burn the R1 on Davin and miss on McNeil, Mangold for you C lovers, Kiwi and others. When you make a mistake the problem is how you have to make another move to fix that same mistake (see Harper, Emmauel, Green, Reidel, KJ as a great example of continuing failures).

The cap is an excuse becuase while we didn't have the jack for the most expensive players in the game the way we did use the jack we had was often rock dumb and the implications of those decisions continues into the problems we have today.

You're right dalbuc. The Bucs could have probably made a run at Brees by not re-signing Chris Hovan, Mike Alstott, Derrick Brooks and Matt Bryant - all of which played a huge role in an 11-5 NFC South championship season. So you've got a QB who is coming off shoulder surgery and gaping holes at DT, FB, LB and K to worry about and no cap room left to do it. That's called addition by substraction.

Sorry, you can't equate Hovan and Brees. Brees got an $8 million signing bonus, and has a $12 million option bonus due in 2007, along with a $2 million base salary this year with a cap value of close to $4 million. They could have made a run at him, but it would have come at the expense of other players. Hovan has a $2 million cap value in 2006. He got a $3 million signing bonus and had a base of $1.4 million.

The first factor was money, but it also came down to whether the Bucs wanted a promising Simms as their QB or to take a chance on alienating him by signing a guy who was coming off shoulder surgery.

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#40 : December 19, 2006, 11:43:32 AM

True but I would not classify Carnell a dual threat type back yet though.

I agree.  That's why I don't believe he was worth #5 overall (I know a lot of folks here disagree with me here).  We were desperate for a back, and we drafted a guy that wasn't the best fit, and we drafted him too high (IMO).  Had we re-signed Jones, we wouldn't have had the issue, and wouldn't have been so desperate.


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#41 : December 19, 2006, 11:45:29 AM

You're right dalbuc. The Bucs could have probably made a run at Brees by not re-signing Chris Hovan, Mike Alstott, Derrick Brooks and Matt Bryant - all of which played a huge role in an 11-5 NFC South championship season. So you've got a QB who is coming off shoulder surgery and gaping holes at DT, FB, LB and K to worry about and no cap room left to do it. That's called addition by substraction.

Sorry, you can't equate Hovan and Brees. Brees got an $8 million signing bonus, and has a $12 million option bonus due in 2007, along with a $2 million base salary this year with a cap value of close to $4 million. They could have made a run at him, but it would have come at the expense of other players. Hovan has a $2 million cap value in 2006. He got a $3 million signing bonus and had a base of $1.4 million.

The first factor was money, but it also came down to whether the Bucs wanted a promising Simms as their QB or to take a chance on alienating him by signing a guy who was coming off shoulder surgery.

Brees' cap value of $4MM was very workable, even without all the other players you mentioned.  A bit of hyperbole there, IMO.

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#42 : December 19, 2006, 11:46:39 AM

Most of these articles are pure crap, and I agree that the hate should stop. The reporters should know the facts about the team, the salary cap, etc. before they go and write things that just aren't true, just as much of this article is a stretch of the truth.

One thing, however, that I will say is that there are some parts of this article which are very true. Gruden is an excuse maker. He says he isn't, but that is a lie. He makes excuses all the time and then he offers a little line about how he has to coach better and we have to play better. Well, anybody who has watched any games this season knows that he needs to coach better, he needs to hire an offensive coordinator, actually, and that his players need to execute better. Maybe he could offer a little more insight so that we know what direction this team is headed because that is why a lot of the fans and media, in my opinion, are after him. He gives no indication about the direction the team is headed.

I agree. I'm sick of Gruden's excuses, too. Injuries are the lamest one because this team still has 53 players – just like the rest of the NFL teams. However, a few really good players on IR. Then it's up to personnel and coaching to get better backups or coach up the backups.

But the cap isn't an excuse. It's a reason. It's rigid and unforgiving if you are right up to it or over it. If you don't have money to spend, you can't buy better players. You have to go bargain hunting, and I think the Bucs have done a good job of that with guys like Hovan, Bryant, Bolden, Buchanon, etc.

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#43 : December 19, 2006, 11:48:59 AM

Brees deal was heavily backloaded into year #2. The Saints were worried about the shoulder and wanted to cover themselves. We could have basically matched the offer as it is and then if they wanted to escalte that is where the Hovan money could get tossed into the equation.

The Saints deal includes $20 million in guaranteed money despite the shoulder, $8 million in singing bonus and $12 million this offseason. Not too many teams were prepared to essentially hand him $20 million. The Dolphins, who were heavily involved in trying to woo Brees before they traded for Culpepper, choked on Tom Condon's (Brees' agent) refusal to back off the demand for $20 million in guarantees.

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#44 : December 19, 2006, 11:50:01 AM

You're right dalbuc. The Bucs could have probably made a run at Brees by not re-signing Chris Hovan, Mike Alstott, Derrick Brooks and Matt Bryant - all of which played a huge role in an 11-5 NFC South championship season. So you've got a QB who is coming off shoulder surgery and gaping holes at DT, FB, LB and K to worry about and no cap room left to do it. That's called addition by substraction.

Sorry, you can't equate Hovan and Brees. Brees got an $8 million signing bonus, and has a $12 million option bonus due in 2007, along with a $2 million base salary this year with a cap value of close to $4 million. They could have made a run at him, but it would have come at the expense of other players. Hovan has a $2 million cap value in 2006. He got a $3 million signing bonus and had a base of $1.4 million.

The first factor was money, but it also came down to whether the Bucs wanted a promising Simms as their QB or to take a chance on alienating him by signing a guy who was coming off shoulder surgery.

Brees' cap value of $4MM was very workable, even without all the other players you mentioned.  A bit of hyperbole there, IMO.

Workable yes but that is assuming the Saints are brain dead and will roll over and die.
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