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Ladyfan

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#120 : September 29, 2008, 10:01:28 AM

Allen and co. were extremely generous to Simms.  If they wanted some money back on their investment, I think it naive for them to have acted other than they did.  It had nothing to do with
anything personal about Simms.  Its about deals, return on investment etc.  I really don't see how
someone with as little talent as Simms can complain about his treatment.  Or anyone else on his behalf.

The principles of capitalism are harsh and don't often take into account our feelings and our sense of fairness.  That is the rub.


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#121 : September 29, 2008, 10:44:00 AM

If Jeff Garcia is hurt and Griese/McCown do not look ready to step up for this team then this topic will be re-kindled.

This topic is being re-kindled.

How's Griese looking?

Griese's play has been sub par.

I am surprised you would bump a thread that undercuts your own argument.

Griese has played exactly how Griese has always played. No garbage playing-time in the third and fourth quarter of the third and fourth preseason game was going to stop Griese from throwing interceptions.

Your first point: Allen was unprofessional with Simms - Stupid.
Your second point: Griese/McCown needed the playing time Simms got in the preseason against 3rd stringers who were going to be cut - Stupid.

The statistics do not support your argument.

http://www.nfl.com/players/briangriese/profile?id=GRI028314

Griese is a career  59.14% passer (not including 2008) while in the last three games of the 2008 season he has a completion percentage of 55.5%.  The last time Griese has a completiion percentage around 55% was when he came in cold in 2006 and played sporadically.  But it increased in 2007 when he received greater amount of playing time (61.5%).  It is simple logic that unfortunately some can not grasp.

Griese has 114 TD's compared to 92 Int's (not including the 2008 values).  That is about slightly better than a 1:1 TD/INT ratio.  Now looking at the 2008 season Griese has 4 TD's and 6 INT's which is a 2:3 TD/INT ratio which is way below his career ratio.

First point:  Calling ones argument stupid because you disagree with it and can't present a counterargument automatically undermines ones credibility.

Second point: Griese AND Garcia needed more playing time in pre season based on the evidence thus far.  I can't prove it for McCown but more than likely that would be the case for him as well given he does have less experience compared to the two QB's that have already played.

In your haste to attempt to mock me you have exposed yourself.  Look before you leap next time youngster. 8)

Biggs3535

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#122 : September 29, 2008, 11:00:01 AM

First point:  Calling ones argument stupid because you disagree with it and can't present a counterargument automatically undermines ones credibility.

There are three pages of counterarguments in this thread....right before you tried to change the topic of the thread.


Second point: Griese AND Garcia needed more playing time in pre season based on the evidence thus far.  I can't prove it for McCown but more than likely that would be the case for him as well given he does have less experience compared to the two QB's that have already played.

Do you seriously believe that Griese getting the playing time that Chris Simms received in the Pre-Season against third and fourth string players who were cut would have helped Griese with any interception he has thrown this year?


In your haste to attempt to mock me you have exposed yourself.  Look before you leap next time youngster. 8)

LMAO.  Still waiting for a response on Mahan and Zuttah.  That will be bumped soon.


The White Tiger

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#123 : September 29, 2008, 11:47:06 AM

ADW - you seem to following a pattern...in defense of an indefensible point. Bruce Allen is not out enemy and was not wrong in his handling of kid Simms. Gruden was not unfair either, exactly as you pointed out, out of either respect for a legend (father Phil), or general likeable-ness of kidd Simms...Gruden dedicated playing time in the rpe-season in order to allow Chris and opportunity to showcase his "talent". He even put him in positions that made Simms look better...Simms played against number 2 defenses with number one talent surrounding him. He was allowed to throw down the field to show he could still hit moving targets. Sorry, your whining about Simms being treated unfairly seems to be colliding with your dislike for the GM and head coach. Your're hearing hooves and thinking AHA, ZEBRA! When in reality it's just horses, as usual. Another kid with promise that makes people like him that cannot translate into the pro-game (and in actuality Chris Simms talent never matured at the University of Texas).

As to you then switching tables on us and making this about Gruden taking playing time away from guys who needed it...unfortunately that is unfounded as well. Gruden would have loved to have concentrated on a rotation with Garcia, Greise, and McCown. He LOVES QB competitions in TC. He just never got the chance to have one. McCown got a lot of work and against pre-season defenses he looked almost as sharp as Greise. One edge Greise has that McCown has not yet developed is how to come back after a turnover. It does not seem to bother Greise, in Chicago he simply bounced right back and tied the game and forced overtime, then he did the same thing in OT.

Does Greise still pull the bonehead play? Yep, at least 2 times per game. But he has the confidence in himself, the playcalling and MOSTLY his defense - that he doesn't let it get to him. There was at least one veteran in last years playoffs that no one seemed to mind him throwing a pic - so long as you put the ball in his hands one more time...so don't give me stats on anything but wins.

Greise does one more thing better than McCown - and McCown wasn't going to pick it up by playing more in the pre-season. Greise is MONEY in the two-minute drill.

Now, having said that, I don't think Greise makes it the entire season either - but I think that will be due to more health sustainability rather than a performance issue. I think Garcia is being given some time to get straight and get right - as we will be going to him late in the season. I also think that if you see McCown in as the starter this season it means Garcia wasn't ready, or something dreadful has happened to our post season destiny.

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alldaway

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#124 : September 29, 2008, 01:14:22 PM

There are three pages of counterarguments in this thread....right before you tried to change the topic of the thread.

All counterarguments have already been addressed and I didn't generate the diversion from the original topic next.

Do you seriously believe that Griese getting the playing time that Chris Simms received in the Pre-Season against third and fourth string players who were cut would have helped Griese with any interception he has thrown this year?


LMAO. Still waiting for a response on Mahan and Zuttah. That will be bumped soon.

Griese's completion percentage is down and while he has had issues with INT's not this bad compared to his career numbers.

Yes more playing time would have helped him. 

As for Zuttah/Mahan issue go re-read the thread.


alldaway

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#125 : September 29, 2008, 01:21:34 PM

ADW - you seem to following a pattern...in defense of an indefensible point. Bruce Allen is not out enemy and was not wrong in his handling of kid Simms. Gruden was not unfair either, exactly as you pointed out, out of either respect for a legend (father Phil), or general likeable-ness of kidd Simms...Gruden dedicated playing time in the rpe-season in order to allow Chris and opportunity to showcase his "talent". He even put him in positions that made Simms look better...Simms played against number 2 defenses with number one talent surrounding him. He was allowed to throw down the field to show he could still hit moving targets. Sorry, your whining about Simms being treated unfairly seems to be colliding with your dislike for the GM and head coach. Your're hearing hooves and thinking AHA, ZEBRA! When in reality it's just horses, as usual. Another kid with promise that makes people like him that cannot translate into the pro-game (and in actuality Chris Simms talent never matured at the University of Texas).

As to you then switching tables on us and making this about Gruden taking playing time away from guys who needed it...unfortunately that is unfounded as well. Gruden would have loved to have concentrated on a rotation with Garcia, Greise, and McCown. He LOVES QB competitions in TC. He just never got the chance to have one. McCown got a lot of work and against pre-season defenses he looked almost as sharp as Greise. One edge Greise has that McCown has not yet developed is how to come back after a turnover. It does not seem to bother Greise, in Chicago he simply bounced right back and tied the game and forced overtime, then he did the same thing in OT.

Does Greise still pull the bonehead play? Yep, at least 2 times per game. But he has the confidence in himself, the playcalling and MOSTLY his defense - that he doesn't let it get to him. There was at least one veteran in last years playoffs that no one seemed to mind him throwing a pic - so long as you put the ball in his hands one more time...so don't give me stats on anything but wins.

Greise does one more thing better than McCown - and McCown wasn't going to pick it up by playing more in the pre-season. Greise is MONEY in the two-minute drill.

Now, having said that, I don't think Greise makes it the entire season either - but I think that will be due to more health sustainability rather than a performance issue. I think Garcia is being given some time to get straight and get right - as we will be going to him late in the season. I also think that if you see McCown in as the starter this season it means Garcia wasn't ready, or something dreadful has happened to our post season destiny.

If you believe I dislike the GM and coach you are sipping the kool aid too much.  My opinion on how Simms was treated was as objective as possible.   Worse the team has nothing to show for the teams "generousity" as they released Simms.

My objective opinion is that Griese will remain the starter if the Bucs keep on winning and that Garcia is done.  You hold out hope that if Griese continues to struggle that Gruden may insert Garcia.  But I see that as an unlikely scenario given if that is the case the team may be willing to turn to Luke.

Griese has the occasional bonehead play but is regarded as an accurate passer for most of his career.  His recent play has been sloppy (and the same can be said of Garcia) when you look at his completion percentage.  Playing time regardless of competition is important for repitition and timing which many seem to undervalue around here.  There is a reason why Simms looked flat heading into the 2006 season and it is no coincidence IMVHO.


Biggs3535

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#126 : September 29, 2008, 01:28:37 PM

Griese's completion percentage is down and while he has had issues with INT's not this bad compared to his career numbers.

Yes more playing time would have helped him. 

OK.

I feel you are seriously overestimating the value of Pre-Season play in the 3rd and 4th quarters against 3rd and 4th stringers.

By the way, Griese had a 94.2 QB rating, 74.3 completion percentage, and 0 interceptions in the Pre-Season.  It seems Pre-Season play doesn't carry over as much you think.


The White Tiger

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#127 : September 29, 2008, 03:10:19 PM

No - but but we cannot deny that the pre-season work is important. I would have liked to have seen Garcia get more involved in TC and Pre-season. I had a belief that Grudens offense worked best with the mobile type QB that Garcia was - watching Greise run this offense though I see I may be wrong. While Greise is more mobile than Brad Johnson, he won't get confused with Garcia (Rich Gannon comparisons are beginning to spring to mind...).

I think the pre-season work definitely made Greise stand out and Luke McCown looked like he'd made some progress...

I don't think this is personal with Garcia. I sincerely hope Ladyfan didn't nail it a few weeks ago when she theorized Garcia started contract negotiations (even mentioned "hold out") because he wasn't physically capable of performing. That he was dealing in bad faith by trying to get a salary increase while witholding the state of his health...hopefully Jeff really did have a leg injury and it it left him behind in his physical conditioning and preparedness to start the season.

If Garcia is healthy and has some swagger back, then you will see him later this season. The idea that Greise will finish the season without a serious injury seems very unlikely. In that scenario, if the Bucs are still contending for a playoff spot then I don't see how you can entrust the teams future to an unknown and unproven talent. I believe Garcia is the better of the two, right now.

It just does not fit Gruden philosophy to theorize he would not go with a healthy veteran that took us into the playoffs last season.

As long as we can keep winning - and Greise is healthy - why mess with a hot hand?

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ONEBIGDADDY

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#128 : October 01, 2008, 06:51:14 PM

No - but but we cannot deny that the pre-season work is important. I would have liked to have seen Garcia get more involved in TC and Pre-season. I had a belief that Grudens offense worked best with the mobile type QB that Garcia was - watching Greise run this offense though I see I may be wrong. While Greise is more mobile than Brad Johnson, he won't get confused with Garcia (Rich Gannon comparisons are beginning to spring to mind...).

I think the pre-season work definitely made Greise stand out and Luke McCown looked like he'd made some progress...

I don't think this is personal with Garcia. I sincerely hope Ladyfan didn't nail it a few weeks ago when she theorized Garcia started contract negotiations (even mentioned "hold out") because he wasn't physically capable of performing. That he was dealing in bad faith by trying to get a salary increase while witholding the state of his health...hopefully Jeff really did have a leg injury and it it left him behind in his physical conditioning and preparedness to start the season.

If Garcia is healthy and has some swagger back, then you will see him later this season. The idea that Greise will finish the season without a serious injury seems very unlikely. In that scenario, if the Bucs are still contending for a playoff spot then I don't see how you can entrust the teams future to an unknown and unproven talent. I believe Garcia is the better of the two, right now.

It just does not fit Gruden philosophy to theorize he would not go with a healthy veteran that took us into the playoffs last season.

As long as we can keep winning - and Greise is healthy - why mess with a hot hand?

Good Post...OBD


The White Tiger

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#129 : October 01, 2008, 11:23:20 PM

Thanks OBD - it just really doesn't make sense to think Gruden would endanger the team for personal reasons.

I have only seen him do all he can to make this team win. I've seen him get rid of trouble makers and bring in as much help as could be used.

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Biggs3535

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#130 : December 15, 2008, 01:01:20 PM

So what was the point of having Simms take playing time away from the other QB's on the roster?  What was the point of having a player we knew didn't have a chance of making the team when the Bucs could have brought in a player that could have had a chance?

Bruce tends to be able to avoid letting his emotions take over in making calculations for his next moves, but to me this seems personal and in fact hurt the team.

This entire freakin' thread is classic.

Bruce is pukehead!

If only Griese had more playing time in the Pre-Season against 3rd stringers, he might not make the same mistakes he has made his entire career...

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