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Bucnation619

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#30 : December 30, 2006, 12:45:20 AM

Draft DL, then DL. After that maybe a few DB's and LB's.

i am Agree with u!! Bucs need Good D


leeroybuc93

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#31 : December 30, 2006, 12:50:23 AM

THe thing is - Calvin Johnson reminds me a LOT of CHarles Rogers. I've said it several times - watch his games. THis guy, who is 6'4 and runs a 4.4-40, is rarely wide open. IN fact, he doesn't seem to get separation nearly as well as his physical skills dictate. Why? He runs poor routes. Remember - Clayton's biggest edge in his rookie season was his routes - he ran them crisp and managed to get open despite running a 4.6 (I think the main reason his production's fallen off - he's running dreadful routes now). Want a perfect example - Larry Fitz ran a 4.56 40 but you can't cover this guy, period. His routes are precise, all his cuts and digs are crisp and he plays faster than his 40 whereas I feel Johnson plays a lot slower.

I would love nothing more than for Dwayne Jarrett or Steve Smith to have awful pro days. Maybe not so much Jarreet as Smith. I have a feeling that we can snag Steve in the 2nd or maybe even Indi's 2nd pick and then use our #1 on Gaines. Smith's only 6-0 and he's not speedy, but he's a great route runner.

This is one of those things that people say enough and suddenly they become true.  I've seen the guy play plenty on TV and once in person (VT game).  His routes are fine.  They are not the best I've ever seen, but with skill set they don't have to be.  And just for some backup, this is what is under his routes section on nfl draft blitz: 
  - Exhibits good body control
  - Runs better then average routes, but they can improve
  - Changes directions well for a big guy
  - Able to stop on a dime and cut back

cyberdude557

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#32 : December 30, 2006, 02:04:56 AM

Didn't the Lions prove you can draft all the WRs you want and you never get any better?

Yeah, but the Lions don't seem to get any better no matter who the draft. I mean we are talking about the Lions here. A team that hasn't won a championship since 1955. And has only won 2 playoff games since.

watson

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#33 : December 30, 2006, 06:49:07 AM

You can have all the great WRs in the world and it won't matter if your QB is laying on his back after getting sacked and can't make the pass or the offense is sitting on the sidelines as the other teams offense runs up and down the field because your defense can't stop them.  It all starts in the trenches and unless those 2 areas (especially D Line) are addressed early and often this year it won't matter how many WRs are drafted.

Everyone keeps touting Freeney as the DLineman that the Bucs should go after, but isn't he part of one of the worst run defenses in the NFL?  A run defense so bad that they traded a 2nd round choice to the Bucs for Booger McInjured!  Until this year he has done very well in getting sacks, but the first priority of the Cover 2 is stopping the run and he is failing miserably at that.

Truths:
1.  Never have an argument with an idiot.  They will drag you down to their level and then beat you with their experience.
2.  For some it would be better if they remained silent and be thought a fool than to speak and erase all doubt.



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#34 : December 30, 2006, 07:40:14 AM

You can have all the great WRs in the world and it won't matter if your QB is laying on his back after getting sacked and can't make the pass or the offense is sitting on the sidelines as the other teams offense runs up and down the field because your defense can't stop them. It all starts in the trenches and unless those 2 areas (especially D Line) are addressed early and often this year it won't matter how many WRs are drafted.

Everyone keeps touting Freeney as the DLineman that the Bucs should go after, but isn't he part of one of the worst run defenses in the NFL? A run defense so bad that they traded a 2nd round choice to the Bucs for Booger McInjured! Until this year he has done very well in getting sacks, but the first priority of the Cover 2 is stopping the run and he is failing miserably at that.
Freeney has always been useless against the run, that is nothing new.

corruptpirate

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#35 : December 30, 2006, 08:11:05 AM

First priority in the Cover 2 was never the run, so I don't see whats wrong with Freeney. The first priority in the cover 2 was getting to the Qb with the front four. If the Bucs nab Freeney, it would be the same situtation when they first got Rice. The reason I want Freeney on the Bucs is because he puts alot of pressure on the QB.

As for CJ, I would prefer if the Bucs spent their pick on Joe Thomas or Gaines Adams because top flight pass rushers and franchise tackles are harder to come by in the NFL than good WRs.

watson

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#36 : December 30, 2006, 09:43:34 AM

First priority in the Cover 2 was never the run, so I don't see whats wrong with Freeney. The first priority in the cover 2 was getting to the Qb with the front four. If the Bucs nab Freeney, it would be the same situtation when they first got Rice. The reason I want Freeney on the Bucs is because he puts alot of pressure on the QB.

As for CJ, I would prefer if the Bucs spent their pick on Joe Thomas or Gaines Adams because top flight pass rushers and franchise tackles are harder to come by in the NFL than good WRs.
Corrupt,
I must be hearing things then, because I've heard Sapp, Brooks, Lynch, Monte....almost everyone one on defense say their first priority is to stop the run and then that makes the offense one dimensional and they can then rush the passer.  Rice has always been a liability in the run defense, but there were enough others to cover for his deficiencies.  That luxury is no longer there.  I think that is why you saw them get gouged many times this year and when they started having to cover with additional players in the box they got exposed to the pass.

Totally concur with your thoughts on Johnson versus Adams or Thomas.  I would also like to see them get Tank Tyler.  In the games I've seen him play this year, he has really been a disruptive force.

Truths:
1.  Never have an argument with an idiot.  They will drag you down to their level and then beat you with their experience.
2.  For some it would be better if they remained silent and be thought a fool than to speak and erase all doubt.

4bucs

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#37 : December 30, 2006, 11:50:08 AM

if we have the 3rd or 4th pick in the draft how ab out a trade down to maybe the 10 pick in the 1st rd plus their 2nd,we have a lot of holes ...really depends if we have stellar FA signings.

leeroybuc93

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#38 : December 30, 2006, 02:33:51 PM

if we have the 3rd or 4th pick in the draft how ab out a trade down to maybe the 10 pick in the 3rd rd plus their 2nd,we have a lot of holes ...really depends if we have stellar FA signings.

I don't like this idea.  Good teams have stars.  We don't.  We need quality, not quantity.

bklynbucs11

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#39 : December 30, 2006, 02:36:58 PM

THe thing is - Calvin Johnson reminds me a LOT of CHarles Rogers. I've said it several times - watch his games. THis guy, who is 6'4 and runs a 4.4-40, is rarely wide open. IN fact, he doesn't seem to get separation nearly as well as his physical skills dictate. Why? He runs poor routes. Remember - Clayton's biggest edge in his rookie season was his routes - he ran them crisp and managed to get open despite running a 4.6 (I think the main reason his production's fallen off - he's running dreadful routes now). Want a perfect example - Larry Fitz ran a 4.56 40 but you can't cover this guy, period. His routes are precise, all his cuts and digs are crisp and he plays faster than his 40 whereas I feel Johnson plays a lot slower.

I would love nothing more than for Dwayne Jarrett or Steve Smith to have awful pro days. Maybe not so much Jarreet as Smith. I have a feeling that we can snag Steve in the 2nd or maybe even Indi's 2nd pick and then use our #1 on Gaines. Smith's only 6-0 and he's not speedy, but he's a great route runner.

This is one of those things that people say enough and suddenly they become true.  I've seen the guy play plenty on TV and once in person (VT game).  His routes are fine.  They are not the best I've ever seen, but with skill set they don't have to be.  And just for some backup, this is what is under his routes section on nfl draft blitz: 
  - Exhibits good body control
  - Runs better then average routes, but they can improve
  - Changes directions well for a big guy
  - Able to stop on a dime and cut back

I stand by my point. If you watch him play, you'll seee that he can make the big play and the spectacular catch and can outleap anyone. IN other words, he'll be a SPortscenter guy  -but he won't do what Larry Fitz or Holt or Harrison do in terms of running hte perfect route and using his physical gifts (like FItz and OWens do) to ensure that he will indeed be open every damn time in single coverage.


Samari28

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#40 : December 31, 2006, 10:28:44 AM

Johnson is by far a better WR than Ginn as Ginn is a Special Teams player that also plays WR - Ginn is not even the best WR on the Buckeyes - Gonzalez is.  I think one can question all the picks at WR - now I don't question the Clayton pick as at least he has shown he can play but why hasn't Russel, Warren, Brackins or even Jones shown any ability to make plays in this league?  Over the past few years most of our second day draft picks have sucked so it is not like it is just a player here and there so this comes down to scouting and player development plus the fact the player is just not a player.  Clayton in my opinion has not been a bust as he produced his rookie year when given the opportunity, his second year he gor hurt and probably got a little big headed and this year I still say he would have had a better season had we been in better position with our QB and OL.  Cadillac's performance this year also declined and this is directly due to the fact our OL is still not that good and fact that people are not and will never be scared of Bruce and his play.  If Simms could have stayed healthy or we could have kept Griese, which I think would have been the better choice, I firmly believe Cadillac and Clayton would have had solid years.  Yes Clayton has dropped some balls and this has been debated enough but what WR does not drop balls - hell even Galloway was the highest percentage of drops on this team.  I do feel like Adams is the best and probably safe choice as Thomas is not a sure thing and if we look back at our draft history with Gruden he drafts guys that have four years of college so this is why I do not see us going after Johnson, plus if we don't fix our other holes (QB, OL, DL, LB and DB) it does not matter who we have at WR. 

dalbuc

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#41 : December 30, 2006, 04:06:25 PM


I don't like this idea.  Good teams have stars.  We don't.  We need quality, not quantity.

Agree 100%, you get "quantity" when you have the stars and you need guys around them - and even then I'm not sure that holds up. You need big name players to win big games. You can quantity over quality to 8-8 but super bowls need super stars - and yes I know you can get stars anywhere in the draft but the odds are much more in your favor higher up in the draft.

All posts are opinions in case you are too stupid to figure that out on your own without me saying it over and over.
If you think Manziel is the best QB in this draft I can safely assume you are an idiot and will treat you as such.

watson

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#42 : December 30, 2006, 04:10:46 PM


I don't like this idea. Good teams have stars. We don't. We need quality, not quantity.

Agree 100%, you get "quantity" when you have the stars and you need guys around them - and even then I'm not sure that holds up. You need big name players to win big games. You can quantity over quality to 8-8 but super bowls need super stars - and yes I know you can get stars anywhere in the draft but the odds are much more in your favor higher up in the draft.
Dal,
I know you follow the players pretty closely.  Have you done a comparison of Johnson to players like Roy Williams, Mike Williams, Charles Rogers and Larry Fitzgerald?  I know it is impossible to know how they will play once they get to the NFL, but it would be interesting to see how they compared going in.

Truths:
1.  Never have an argument with an idiot.  They will drag you down to their level and then beat you with their experience.
2.  For some it would be better if they remained silent and be thought a fool than to speak and erase all doubt.

dalbuc

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#43 : December 30, 2006, 04:15:48 PM

Watson,

I hated BMW before he got to the pros. I'll tell you why, when they go to the combine check 3 figures: 10 yard split in their 40 yard dash, their long shuttle and short shuttle time. The biggest difference among a lot of college WR's in terms of physical gifts is that ability to explode off the line and to move laterally. A lot of big name college WR's make their living off deep speed and CB's that sit 10 yards off them which lets their poor route running go un-punished.

All posts are opinions in case you are too stupid to figure that out on your own without me saying it over and over.
If you think Manziel is the best QB in this draft I can safely assume you are an idiot and will treat you as such.

watson

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#44 : December 30, 2006, 04:29:42 PM

Watson,

I hated BMW before he got to the pros. I'll tell you why, when they go to the combine check 3 figures: 10 yard split in their 40 yard dash, their long shuttle and short shuttle time. The biggest difference among a lot of college WR's in terms of physical gifts is that ability to explode off the line and to move laterally. A lot of big name college WR's make their living off deep speed and CB's that sit 10 yards off them which lets their poor route running go un-punished.
Dal,
That is what scares me about C Johnson.  With the speed and size he has he should be more dominant than he has been.  What bothers me is I don't see him "want" the ball more than the defender.  Too many times he is one on one and the defender gets the interception and he doesn't try to protect his QB like a good receiver will do.

Truths:
1.  Never have an argument with an idiot.  They will drag you down to their level and then beat you with their experience.
2.  For some it would be better if they remained silent and be thought a fool than to speak and erase all doubt.
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