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ufojoe

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: October 16, 2008, 12:02:16 AM

The only way McCain is going to win is if there is proof that Obama is not a US citizen. McCain is outmatched.

There's another way and I'm not talking about a terrorist attack.

Stay tuned...


spartan

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#1 : October 16, 2008, 12:08:11 AM

When capitalism has shown to fail when unregulated yes the wealth needs to be spread around.


What wealth when nobody can be assed to earn it because the Govt will just take it off you. face, nose anyone?

The spirit of Capitalism is about the ability for anyone to participate and climb the ladder.  Problem is when it is unregulated the richer become richer and the poorer become poorer and the dream of climbing a ladder shatters.  That is why there has been an increase with the U.S. population turning to welfare.

The weakness of socialism is that the more people participate in welfare the more you need to increase the taxes to support it  In a way it is like a man made feedback loop.

Regulate capitalism and the need for those to rely on welfare will decrease.  As a result the need to tax more to support the welfare would lessen significantly.

What we are seeing is a cause and effect.  When we have one extreme that people take advantage of (lessened regulation on capitalism) the rest of the people will have no choice but to gravitate to the other extreme to balance out the situation (socialism).


I actually agree 100% with what you say here. The problem is, and I have seen it in person, is that the instead of building a welfare system that caters to those in dire need, and promotes initiatives for those who need help, it ends up building a social strata that not only depends on welfare, but becomes a social class upon itself. This social class do not see the need to work nor the need to improve. Why should they work for $12 an hour when they can get $9 an hour for doing nothing? They get their welfare check and it provides for their immediate needs. They don't understand that the $12 an hour is a starting point for bigger and better things if they just apply themselves and have ambition. The political class then continue to ferment this social class, in essence buy their votes by perpetually pampering  and providing them with more welfare.

They do this by taxing 'the rich'. The problem with that policy is two fold.

The first and most obvious is that eventually at some point you either run out of 'rich' to tax, or the aforementioned rich go somewhere else to live. A classic example is the 'brain drain' that effected the UK in the 70's and early 80's. Anybody who was anybody left the UK and went somewhere else, primarily to the States funny enough. Perversely enough, the biggest culprits were College Professors who were for the most part, 'lefties'. They followed the money!!

That's by the by, because the second adverse effect is desire. I currently work for a startup (sort of, we spun off from a major conglomerate), and right now I regularly work 10-12 hr days. Not because I get overtime, because I don't, I'm a 'paid professional' but to re-establish the company name and grow a trust and understanding with the customer base. It has been a tough 8 months. On the upside, I think that unless the economy completely tanks I will get the maximum bonus and pay raise. It might not be ideal, but it makes it more acceptable. Yet, if the Govt are going to take upwards of 50% of that off me, why in the hell should I sacrifice the time away from my family? If I know that no matter how hard I work it will barely make a dent in my lot in life, why should I boter? In short, I will stop putting in those 12 hr days, possibly, and probably resulting in my company making less money. They make less money they cannot expand, they cannot expand they cannot hire new employees.

kmitchell

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#2 : October 15, 2008, 11:59:02 PM

The only way McCain is going to win is if there is proof that Obama is not a US citizen. McCain is outmatched.


ufojoe

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#3 : October 15, 2008, 11:56:45 PM

I didn't read any of the responses here yet. I want to post my opinion of tonight's debate first.

Mac came out strong and clearly won the first half hour. But after that, Obama improved and really did well.

In the 2nd part of the debate, McCain came across as the angry, old man, again. And his facial expressions
were fun to watch. I love the split screen shots. CNN used them a lot.

Obama? Cool and calm. Maybe a bit too cool and calm. But with the lead, it's the smart approach.

Obama wins again.

CNN and CBS have Obama winning again in their polls. The numbers weren't even close. In the CNN poll,
Independents clearly thought Obama won. They're the ones who count.

McCain attacked as much as he could. And the polls and instant opinion meters matched what we have
seen recently: Voters don't like it and want to hear more about the economy and healthcare.

There's one way that McCain can still win. I'll save that for a separate thread in a few days.

Joe the Plumber was good the first time. But the 2nd and 3rd and 4th? As one non-decided voter
said, it became gimmicky.




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#4 : October 15, 2008, 11:56:25 PM


The spirit of Capitalism is about the ability for anyone to participate and climb the ladder. Problem is when it is unregulated the richer become richer and the poorer become poorer and the dream of climbing a ladder shatters. That is why there has been an increase with the U.S. population turning to welfare.

The weakness of socialism is that the more people participate in welfare the more you need to increase the taxes to support it In a way it is like a man made feedback loop.

Regulate capitalism and the need for those to rely on welfare will decrease. As a result the need to tax more to support the welfare would lessen significantly.

What we are seeing is a cause and effect. When we have one extreme that people take advantage of (lessened regulation on capitalism) the rest of the people will have no choice but to gravitate to the other extreme to balance out the situation (socialism).





I keep hearing that, but I'd like to know where you got that information.  Regulating capitalism, no longer remains capitalism and moves to a marxism, "spread the wealth" method.  We have plenty of regulations, for most of the major industries in this country, more regulation is not necessary, especially when the gov't lets the markets be, and GSE's be disbanded, and never started up again.  I guess I don't get why someone should be penalized for their success? Why is it that  a firm like Wells Fargo was forced to sign off on the bailout, when the CEO of said company said that they didn't need to?  

The only regulation necessary IMO is on the two B.S. GSE's that initiated most of this issue.  Fannie/Freddie also was called into question, but Raines put a stop to that by running crying to his buddies in congress in '99 to have congress defund the oversight committee investigating them.  Then again Fannie/Freddie was called to the table in '03 and the administration wanted to stop it then, but was blocked from doing so then.  Why?  IMO we don't need MORE legislation telling us how to regulate more, but rather enforce what is in place already, all that legislation does is give congress and senate the ability to spend more money that is not theirs.



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#5 : October 16, 2008, 12:03:44 AM

The plumber's shouldn't worry about his taxes; he should worry about the loan that he'll never get because the current state financial crises.

What do plumbers make nowadays anyway? From my understanding, Obama's plan affects people that make over $250,000 anyway. I know plumbers charge up the wazoo for minor work, but do they really make that much?

In regards to what plumbers make these days, there is one such company here that has around 40 plumbers that work for them.  They also do other mechanical work like heating/cooling systems as well, and larger scale stuff for commercial use, but I would venture to say that that particular company without looking at their overall standing is a $250,000+ yearly company for sure.  That is just one such firm in the area that I live in which is a bustling community of approx. 60,000 city, and within the area of maybe 75,000.

As far as that loan statement goes, there are still people making loans out there from what I've seen and heard, they were making them before this financial crisis and still are, it may depend actually on the firm that you borrow from, maybe if Joe the Plumber borrows from Wells Fargo he'll get his business up and running before Obama penalizes in his effort to be marxist in "spreading the wealth."

Morgan

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#6 : October 15, 2008, 11:41:04 PM

The plumber's shouldn't worry about his taxes; he should worry about the loan that he'll never get because the current state financial crises.

What do plumbers make nowadays anyway? From my understanding, Obama's plan affects people that make over $250,000 anyway. I know plumbers charge up the wazoo for minor work, but  do they really make that much?

Snake Pliskin

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#7 : October 15, 2008, 10:33:27 PM

Joe the Plumber? That dude is hurt and angry. Or is it angry and hurt? Joe's pissed and crying in the corner is all I know.



"A fanatic is one who can't change his mind and won't change the subject"--Winston Churchill

alldaway

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#8 : October 15, 2008, 11:22:51 PM

When capitalism has shown to fail when unregulated yes the wealth needs to be spread around.


What wealth when nobody can be assed to earn it because the Govt will just take it off you. face, nose anyone?

The spirit of Capitalism is about the ability for anyone to participate and climb the ladder.  Problem is when it is unregulated the richer become richer and the poorer become poorer and the dream of climbing a ladder shatters.  That is why there has been an increase with the U.S. population turning to welfare.

The weakness of socialism is that the more people participate in welfare the more you need to increase the taxes to support it  In a way it is like a man made feedback loop.

Regulate capitalism and the need for those to rely on welfare will decrease.  As a result the need to tax more to support the welfare would lessen significantly.

What we are seeing is a cause and effect.  When we have one extreme that people take advantage of (lessened regulation on capitalism) the rest of the people will have no choice but to gravitate to the other extreme to balance out the situation (socialism).




tbc_bucs

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#9 : October 15, 2008, 11:28:23 PM

I am convinced that Cyberdude is John McCain himself, in the flesh.




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#10 : October 15, 2008, 11:33:14 PM

Joe the Plumber? That dude is hurt and angry. Or is it angry and hurt? Joe's pissed and crying in the corner is all I know.

He is asked to be penalized by Obama's economic plan for busting is butt to become a small business owner.  I think that I'd be a little angry too, and it is going to make potential small business owners stop and think before they decide to take the risk of starting a new business.  Tax increases are not the answer to helping our economy, especially on those that provide the jobs to americans.  

alldaway

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#11 : October 16, 2008, 12:09:16 AM

I keep hearing that, but I'd like to know where you got that information.  Regulating capitalism, no longer remains capitalism and moves to a marxism, "spread the wealth" method.  We have plenty of regulations, for most of the major industries in this country, more regulation is not necessary, especially when the gov't lets the markets be, and GSE's be disbanded, and never started up again.  I guess I don't get why someone should be penalized for their success? Why is it that  a firm like Wells Fargo was forced to sign off on the bailout, when the CEO of said company said that they didn't need to? 

The last 50 years with capitalism regulated (and kept on a leash) it has been the most prosperous and stable our society/ country has ever been.  The last time capitalism had very little regulation we saw the worst economic period in recent history.  This isn't a communist ideal, but common sense. 

Fast forward today, and we are seeing the pattern repeat itself as the economy is faltering due to the loosening of regulation (or as you put it not enforcing what is on the books).

Penalizing success?  Too much success leads to monopolies which only hurts competition.  Again I have to ask why do many refuse to look at history?  Capitalism fails as a system when it is not regulated and until it is proven otherwise that is what we know as truth.

The reason why people are turning to socialism is becuase when you have others with deeply entrenched beliefs that capitalism with little regulation is "okay" it ends up being a polarizing issue.



mjs020294

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#12 : October 16, 2008, 12:13:46 AM

The plumber's shouldn't worry about his taxes; he should worry about the loan that he'll never get because the current state financial crises.

What do plumbers make nowadays anyway? From my understanding, Obama's plan affects people that make over $250,000 anyway. I know plumbers charge up the wazoo for minor work, but do they really make that much?

In regards to what plumbers make these days, there is one such company here that has around 40 plumbers that work for them. �They also do other mechanical work like heating/cooling systems as well, and larger scale stuff for commercial use, but I would venture to say that that particular company without looking at their overall standing is a $250,000+ yearly company for sure. �That is just one such firm in the area that I live in which is a bustling community of approx. 60,000 city, and within the area of maybe 75,000.


What the hell does company turnover have to do with anything?   No one is taxing company turnovers, just pre-tax profits, i.e. after all the overheads(wages) are paid.  


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#13 : October 15, 2008, 11:05:06 PM

When capitalism has shown to fail when unregulated yes the wealth needs to be spread around.


What wealth when nobody can be assed to earn it because the Govt will just take it off you. face, nose anyone?

alldaway

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#14 : October 15, 2008, 11:03:30 PM

When capitalism has shown to fail when unregulated yes the wealth needs to be spread around.

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