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jerseybucsfan

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: November 11, 2008, 01:17:23 AM

That's a tough comparison. College football is bogus, lacking a playoff system. Two losses are you're toast. Last year's Super Bowl winner lost six times.

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redbeard10

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#1 : November 11, 2008, 01:13:44 AM

I equate Gruden's situation here to what it seems Charlie Weis is now facing in South Bend. Everyone wants to run him out of town, offensive genius label fading, can't develop talented players, playcalling and scoring offense is inept. It's really interesting how similar the two situations are.

jerseybucsfan

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#2 : November 11, 2008, 12:55:38 AM

Sorry. Gotta be a drafted guy or else Gruden is a failure, a non-genius, a blemish on our society, a disgrace to all Bucdom!! :P

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jerseybucsfan

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#3 : November 11, 2008, 12:57:10 AM

Elias, my pissy-ness isn't directed at you. You're one of the best posters on this board. I find it funny that it's limited to skill players since Sears isn't bad (when healthy), Joseph isn't too bad when healthy, etc.
Were our skill players ALL that good, we'd be 8-1, not 6-3.

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Bucs Capacitor

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#4 : November 11, 2008, 12:58:51 AM

Sorry. Gotta be a drafted guy or else Gruden is a failure, a non-genius, a blemish on our society, a disgrace to all Bucdom!! :P

But don't ya see, those players succeed IN SPITE of Gruden's ineptness! :D :D

It's all good, Jersey.  I just wanted to be clear, as I have been falsely accused in the past.

redbeard10

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#5 : November 11, 2008, 01:01:09 AM

To limit it to drafted skill players is silly. If anything, our production with some undrafted guys lends more toward the idea that we can develop some talent.

jerseybucsfan

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#6 : November 11, 2008, 01:03:57 AM

The funny thing is that Gruden annoys me just as much as anyone else. I just don't dig cheapshots, whether it's Cindy Brunson on the NBA on ESPN News or Bill Simmons on espn.com on whatever ...
It's oversimplification. The Bucs need EVERYONE in their organization to evaluate offensive skill talent better.
Getting A. Bryant was a coup, but they need a few more long-term solutions. If that's the original intent, then we ALL agree.
I don't love all of Gruden's playcalling and I want more points as much as the next guy. But I don't think for the most part we have underachieved all that often in his tenure. 2003 was a disappointment, filled with bad luck and instant aging. 2004 stunk because the FA gambles backfired big time. But three of the last four seasons we've been a good, sometimes really good team. I'm not sure why hounding Gruden has to continue. Will a playoff win change that? I'd really like to find out.

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jerseybucsfan

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#7 : November 11, 2008, 12:54:35 AM

When we draft good defense, Monte gets the credit. But when we draft bad offense, Gruden gets the blame. Double-edged sword. So he only has talent input on the players that don't pan out? Wow.

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#8 : November 11, 2008, 12:54:47 AM

Oh so ''drafted'' is the condition. FAs that are undrafted don't count it. Predictable.

Ok before you get all pissy, I was playing devil's advocate when I brought up the draft thing.  But you do make a good point.  Does this mean that Clifton Smith doesn't count?  I would surely think not.  Also, what about Earnest Graham.  I'd say he's been "coached up" pretty well, eh?

jerseybucsfan

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#9 : November 11, 2008, 12:52:08 AM

Oh so ''drafted'' is the condition. FAs that are undrafted don't count it. Predictable.

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redbeard10

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#10 : November 11, 2008, 12:52:31 AM

Not to mention reviving the careers of Stevens and Bryant...and to a certain degree Galloway. Heck Askew has become the premiere fullback in the league under Gruden. To say he hasn't developed any talent is just not true. Even if you look at Simms, he was able to a division title with him at the helm, and I think we're seeing that Chris may be a career backup. Look at how McCown has progressed since coming here, though in limited time. Griese plays his best under the guy. You can point to the WR and say maybe there's development issues, but I still have faith in Stovall and Clayton is really coming on of late.

Morgan

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#11 : November 11, 2008, 12:40:06 AM

agree - very disappointed in the offenses that Gruden has put on the field. Even the Super Bowl season, the offense was suspect - and only peaked during the playoff tournament.

BuccanAy

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#12 : November 11, 2008, 12:36:50 AM

I'm talking about every RB, WR, QB and TE drafted in the last 6 years.  Clear enough?  We have NO homegrown talent, ZERO.  Do you think that could be a problem?

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#13 : November 11, 2008, 12:50:15 AM

Are we? I thought we were 3-6? Or maybe I gave up when we got to 1-7. I saw that thread and thought it HAD to be true. My bad.

According to SOME people, we're not winning more than five games this year...so apparently one of our wins doesn't count.

In all seriousness though, I am a Gruden supporter but I have often thought about this.  But the thing is, does all the blame rest on Gruden for not developing a skill position player?  I feel like the rest of the coaching staff (QB coaches, RB coaches, etc.) has to take some of the blame as well.  You talk about how our young defenders have grown and transitioned well, but that doesn't all lie with Kiffin, that is a great testament to guys like Morris who works one on one with the position players.  It's easy for someone to pick out a "problem" that a team has and immediately point to the head coach for the blame.  I doubt it's that easy.  Sure he should take some blame...he did draft these young players along with his GM, but to say outright that Gruden is incapable of coaching up players is a reach.

jerseybucsfan

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#14 : November 11, 2008, 12:20:35 AM

High pick. He doesn't count. This thread could have more conditions than Friedrich's window unit or L'oreal bottle if one so chooses.

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