Welcome, Guest
Pewter Report  >>  Boards  >>  The Red Board (Moderators: 3rd String Kicker, PRPatrol)  >>  Topic: Fixing the Pass Rush « previous next »
Page: 1 2

redbeard10

*
Hall of Famer
******
Posts : 2355
Offline
: November 11, 2008, 12:58:37 AM

I'd like to see Black and possibly Hayward get in some at DE and see what they coud do....then slide White inside to play UT, where he does have some sacks.

yuccaneers

*
Hall of Famer
******
Posts : 2354
Offline
#1 : November 10, 2008, 12:15:35 PM

With everything surrounding the team figured I would give my unbiased "expert" opinion on a way to go about generating a better pass rush. Its called the Eagle five linebacker defense which evolved out of the Buddy Ryan 4-6 defense and was used in the 80's by the LA Rams under the guidance of defensive coach Fritz Shurmur and made popular in Green Bay when Shurmur teamed with Mike Holgraham. It was designed to help stop the counter tray of the Redskins. But I think it could be used with the Buccaneers scheme to help generate some pass rush.

The basic concept is that you have five linebackers and two true defensive lineman making up the front seven. Instead of a nose tackle you replace him a bigger linebacker set off the LOS by about 2-3 yards, then you have your two pass rushing DE play a little wider then normal. then you bring the zone blitz with the five linebackers and play zone behind it something the Bucs are good at or you can play a man to man or even a sky coverage behind the blitz.


In Football, RESPECT is never given freely by your opponent. It must be TAKEN from them...VIOLENTLY

Great players cost a lot of money but help win games. High-priced players - a byproduct of poorly run front offices with bad scouting departments - only cost a lot of money.
"Our greatest glory consists not in never falling, but in rising every time we fall."
Oliver Goldsmith

sammy8887

******
Hall of Famer

Posts : 4241
Offline
#2 : November 10, 2008, 12:19:46 PM

Is this just another scheme to turn over the coaching staff? ;)

yuccaneers

*
Hall of Famer
******
Posts : 2354
Offline
#3 : November 10, 2008, 12:22:36 PM

Sammy - Ok, you caught me. Just like doing alot of reading and figured I would maybe stir the pot a little bit ion the defensive side of the football as well

In Football, RESPECT is never given freely by your opponent. It must be TAKEN from them...VIOLENTLY

Great players cost a lot of money but help win games. High-priced players - a byproduct of poorly run front offices with bad scouting departments - only cost a lot of money.
"Our greatest glory consists not in never falling, but in rising every time we fall."
Oliver Goldsmith

loweredexpectations

*
Starter
****
Posts : 811
Offline
#4 : November 10, 2008, 12:26:11 PM

good food for thought, but we NEED or DT's. we dont have 5 linebackers that can replace the likes of hovan and haye and sims. stop playing madden.

plus they developed that defense over a couple of years. if you're suggesting we start this year i would tell you you're foolish. if its the power of suggestion for years to come, well then, you're still foolish. i trust monte and our cover 2 nickel. i mean we have been a top 10 D 12 out of the past 13 years.

yuccaneers

*
Hall of Famer
******
Posts : 2354
Offline
#5 : November 10, 2008, 12:29:41 PM

It is not a Madden defense and not suggesting using this a base defense, but rather a wrinkle to generator pass rush on known passing downs.

In Football, RESPECT is never given freely by your opponent. It must be TAKEN from them...VIOLENTLY

Great players cost a lot of money but help win games. High-priced players - a byproduct of poorly run front offices with bad scouting departments - only cost a lot of money.
"Our greatest glory consists not in never falling, but in rising every time we fall."
Oliver Goldsmith

keeponbucn

******
Hall of Famer

Posts : 11481
Offline
#6 : November 10, 2008, 12:32:26 PM

It's strange that I watch every other team in the NFL bury teams when they blitz yet watching the Bucs when they bring the house it rarely gets there.

I don't get it, it seems like our LB's can be picked up too easily when they blitz

loweredexpectations

*
Starter
****
Posts : 811
Offline
#7 : November 10, 2008, 12:32:52 PM

right i understand. sorry for the attack. but this is just like the "5 wide" thread. i fear change. haha.

Feel Real Good

******
Hall of Famer

Posts : 26693
Online
#8 : November 10, 2008, 12:36:42 PM

The Eagles linebackers are 245, 255, and 263 lb players. That's as big as half the Bucs' defensive line. Brooks, June, Hayes, etc. are not built to fight through blocks. The Bucs would really have to mix up personnel to do this.

FRG is the most logical poster on this board.  You guys just don\'t like where the logical conclusions take you.

yuccaneers

*
Hall of Famer
******
Posts : 2354
Offline
#9 : November 10, 2008, 12:40:35 PM

Keep  -Think the problem is the linebackers the team has blitzing, while both June and Brooks have some speed they are just not big enough to generate any power when they blitz. Players like Black and Hayward are better blitzing linebackers as they were hybrid LB/DE types that are better at blitzing then June or Brooks.

What I suggest is that you have White and Wilkerson as the two DE in this scheme and Move Adams to one of the LB spots and then insert Black, Hayward along with Ruud June and Brooks blitzing Black, Adams, Hayward, Wilkerson, White and Ruud and let Brooks and June play zone behind it along with the DB's or you could drop Ruud into a short zone as well.

In Football, RESPECT is never given freely by your opponent. It must be TAKEN from them...VIOLENTLY

Great players cost a lot of money but help win games. High-priced players - a byproduct of poorly run front offices with bad scouting departments - only cost a lot of money.
"Our greatest glory consists not in never falling, but in rising every time we fall."
Oliver Goldsmith

Madman

******
Hall of Famer

Posts : 5483
Offline
#10 : November 10, 2008, 12:42:35 PM

The Eagles linebackers are 245, 255, and 263 lb players. That's as big as half the Bucs' defensive line. Brooks, June, Hayes, etc. are not built to fight through blocks. The Bucs would really have to mix up personnel to do this.

Agree for the most part but some players just have a knack for getting there - and the speed.

I like Hayes on the blitz. He knows how to get to the QB.

keeponbucn

******
Hall of Famer

Posts : 11481
Offline
#11 : November 10, 2008, 12:43:13 PM

What I suggest is that you have White and Wilkerson as the two DE in this scheme and Move Adams to one of the LB spots and then insert Black, Hayward along with Ruud June and Brooks blitzing Black, Adams, Hayward, Wilkerson, White and Ruud and let Brooks and June play zone behind it along with the DB's or you could drop Ruud into a short zone as well.

That would be sick.

I love how Monte is using Gaines, he needs to use that creativity with others as well.

yuccaneers

*
Hall of Famer
******
Posts : 2354
Offline
#12 : November 10, 2008, 12:46:41 PM

Think it would be an easy way to get after the QB on known passing downs as well as get some excitement for players and give offense something else to have to think about

In Football, RESPECT is never given freely by your opponent. It must be TAKEN from them...VIOLENTLY

Great players cost a lot of money but help win games. High-priced players - a byproduct of poorly run front offices with bad scouting departments - only cost a lot of money.
"Our greatest glory consists not in never falling, but in rising every time we fall."
Oliver Goldsmith

RangerBuc

*
Pro Bowler
*****
Posts : 1413
Offline
#13 : November 10, 2008, 12:57:25 PM

Given our personnel, I would be more inclined to go with 5 D-linemen than 5 LBs.

Put Sims at the "nose" with two of Haye, Hovan, Peterson, or Wilkerson (I am thinking Peterson and Wilkerson) flanking him then Adams and White on the outsides.  Have Ruud and June as the LBs.  Adams has shown that he can drop back into coverage from time to time if necessary.  Again, this would be an occasional wrinkle, and certainly not a base defense.  We would need to be able to make the substitutions quickly so as not to get those players trapped on the field.  The whole idea would be to bring more people than the o-line could match up against.  The biggest problem would be that with that personnel grouping, there would be no disguising what we were trying to do.


yuccaneers

*
Hall of Famer
******
Posts : 2354
Offline
#14 : November 10, 2008, 02:58:16 PM

Keep  -What Monte is/was running when it comes to the creativity with Adams is a fire zone blitz or a variation of the fire zone blitz



This is from Matt Bowen an ex-NFL defensive player, hope it helps some understand a little btter what is going on when Adams is dropping in coverage.

As you can see from the diagram, the Sam and Mike linebackers both blitz at the snap of the ball, following the “long scoop” by the defensive end who is headed for the strong side “A” gap (the Mike backer will allow the DE to hit his gap before he enters the blitz). The nose guard (or 1 technique) scoops to the weak side “A” gap, while the defensive tackle (or 3 technique) scoops to the “C” gap, rushing the passer with contain principles. Now that the blitz is set, it is time to talk about the coverage aspect of Under Smash.

The underneath defenders in a Fire Zone are key. They play what is called a “Bronco” technique, taking #2/#3 to their zones. As you can see in the diagram, the strong safety is responsible for #2/#3 strong in the passing route. The SS takes the first vertical to his zone (TE seam), but he will come off of any vertical if #3 shows strong (Flat). This is key to the blitz. If #2 goes vertical, followed by #3 to the flat, the SS will pass the vertical to the middle hook player (who is the Will backer in this diagram), flying fast to make a tackle on any pass to #3 in the flat. This may sound like it’s easy to beat, but remember that it is a blitz and that the QB will have to unload the ball fast. Therefore, this route combination has minimal time to develop.  On the other hand, if the blitz does not get home, it is a killer for defenses. Let’s say that the TE ran a 7 route (flag route), paired with #3 to the flat. If the SS drops the 7 route to the Will backer (who is coming from inside out late), the QB is now looking at throwing against a defender who is now playing inside leverage with no help outside. Pro QBs can make that throw all day.

I know what you are thinking: the corner can help. Not so fast my friends. The corner in this blitz is responsible for the Fire Zone 1/3, which converts to man-to-man versus a vertical release by #1. He is taken out of this equation with a 9 route (Go route) by #1, therefore providing no help for the SS or the Will backer.

Under Smash has the same exact principles on the weak side, but as you can see from the diagram, the SS is replaced by a defensive end dropping into coverage. If that defensive end is Julius Peppers, you are in luck. If not, then you may have issues. Teams will work DEs to death with vertical release by #2 weak, most likely a running back out of the backfield or an underneath crossing route from the strong side. Defensive ends have their hands in the dirt at the snap for a reason– they struggle in open space. So as you can see, it is not fool-proof. This is brutal for defenses who face teams who run China-7 combos (Hitch- Flag). The TE running the 7 route becomes the #1 vertical (taken by the corner), while the WR running the China route becomes the #2 receiver– taken by the DE who is coming from a three-point stance. Tough play.

For offenses, the best way to beat any type of Fire Zone is by picking up the blitz with their protections. If a team can read the blitz pre-snap, then they will slide the protection to the strong blitz side, most likely bringing #2 weak (the RB) strong to pick up the Sam linebacker in the blitz. If this happens, any route can be run to perfection with the provided time.

Fire Zones in this league are very common, especially for teams who want to keep zone principles in their pressure packages. Under Smash is the #1 Fire Zone run by the Colts, Bears, and Bills. It is easily taught and very reliable. If you want to watch a team run Fire Zones better than anyone in the NFL, turn on the Steelers this weekend. They are the kings of zone pressure and they run it well.

In Football, RESPECT is never given freely by your opponent. It must be TAKEN from them...VIOLENTLY

Great players cost a lot of money but help win games. High-priced players - a byproduct of poorly run front offices with bad scouting departments - only cost a lot of money.
"Our greatest glory consists not in never falling, but in rising every time we fall."
Oliver Goldsmith
Page: 1 2
Pewter Report  >>  Boards  >>  The Red Board (Moderators: 3rd String Kicker, PRPatrol)  >>  Topic: Fixing the Pass Rush « previous next »
:

Hide Tools Show Tools