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DavyJonesLocker

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: December 11, 2008, 12:44:40 PM

The other thread has turned into garbage....enough said. I'm not a big Jon Gruden fan, but I found some of the things posted in that other thread ludicrous. I just watched the replay, and frame by framed all 3 downs.


1st down. Nothing wrong with passing the ball here. Alex Smith was not wide open like was stated in the other thread. As a matter of fact he was far from wide open. He was actually well covered, and Garcia only had one place to throw the ball to, and that was way out in front of Alex Smith. Garcia actually made the throw, circumstances dictated if the ball was caught it would have been a finger tip grab. Ball's flight pattern and Smith's body position required it to almost be a 1 handed catch. Smith didn't have much help in cradling the ball with his left hand, and is most likely why he wasn't able to grasp it.

2nd down. Good call here, and very well executed by the O-line unlike originally stated in the other thread. Jeff Faine was standing up in the endzone after driving his man 3 1/2 yards off the line of scrimmage. Davin Joseph took a low trajectory and ended up on his belly in the endzone, but in the process drove his man back 3 yards and opened a huge hole for Carnell. Trueblood was driving his man back, and still took him out of the play but tripped over Joseph's body and ended up on top of Joseph, still with leaving his man no way to make the tackle. Beason met Carnell in the huge hole Joseph and Faine opened up and made a great play. My only question with that play, and whether or not it was executed improperly or bad design has to do with BJ Askew. He didn't lead block. Instead, he went toward the left side of the line and ran into the backs of Sears and Penn. If this is by design, I'm thinking bad design for this area of the field. Any time going against a goal line defense you need that lead blocker. You can't have the HB going into that pile naked. If it is designed to have the FB lead block, then BJ blew his assignment. Either way, the hole was there and a very good play was made by Beason and the defense.

3rd down. This play was not a play action fake as previously stated in the other thread. Garcia never ever faked the handoff to Carnell. Garcia vacates the pocket to his left prematurely. This was obviously not a designed rollout. When Garcia left the pocket, there was no pressure.  He essentially took half the field away from himself, which I feel was the wrong decision. He had Askew, Gilmore and Smith who's patterns took them to the right side of the field. Even Jeremy Stevens(Garcia's eventual Target) was running a route that took him from the left side of the field to the right middle. Stevens had to double back and reverse direction when he saw Garcia in trouble. So essentially Garcia had 4 targets, Askew, Gilmore, Smith and Stevens, all of whom's patterns were taking them in the direction of the right side of the field yet Garcia vacated the pocket prematurely to the left. There was eventual pressure from the right, but I calculate Garcia could have had an additional 2 seconds had he stayed in the pocket and essentially given himself 3 more targets to throw to. The way it played out, either he and Stevens connected, or the play was dead.

I would have to guess Gruden wasn't too pleased when he saw the film of this 3rd down play after the game. Those are the facts sprinkled with some opinion. Take with it what you will.



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#1 : December 11, 2008, 12:57:35 PM

Thanks for starting this thread.  The one I started on this topic did get sidetracked.

Play 1 -  you are right.   The play took too long to develop the way it did.  That leads me to believe option 1 was covered and Garcia chocked when trying to make something out of a broken play.  Running here would have been more productive obviously.

Play 2 -  Agreed, we got 1 yard out of it, but it was a good play by the defense.  Was Kevin Carter or a bigger TEs in for that play?   

Play 3 -  Agreed.  Garcia got antsy.  if you MUST call a passing play here, a pocket QB would have performed better.    The two Carolina defenders that rolled out to the left with him played very well.  Garcia took one step and thought about running it himself, and the two defenders immediately took one step towards garcia to change his mind.  Very good insticts there.  Garcia had no choice but to try to force the ball to the receiver who was well covered. 

Bottom line is.  When you run two passing plays from the 2 yard line, you really dont have a lot of time, or space to complet the pass.   Obviously the play calling should have went   pass, run, run, run/pass   with more help from the FB. 

Bucs Bowl

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#2 : December 11, 2008, 01:00:34 PM

Play 3 was going to be the quick out to Stevens that has worked well in Saints and Bears games in past. However if you watch it Carolina reads it and has a backer step out to the left to take away the angle for a slant and if there was a fade it could have been doubled.

Just my opinion! And yes Garcia was antsy!

keeponbucn

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#3 : December 11, 2008, 01:01:42 PM

Agreed that the first play didn't bother me as much as the 3rd down play. It should have been a Caddy run

jeanclaudtransam

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#4 : December 11, 2008, 01:07:52 PM

Just rewatched the sequence

The first down play was executed well until the ball got to Smith. If he puts his hands out and attacks the ball with his thumbs inside I think he catches that. Instead he tries to catch it with his pinkies inside which is what you do for low thrown balls, not ones out in front of you. It was a tough catch to be sure but the bottom line is he needs to catch that.

Agree on the 2nd down.

On third down the play-fake was weak but it did suck in Beason and Diggs. Smith was open in the middle of the endzone in between the zone but as we know Garcia can't see over the line, so he didn't see him. Everything else is pretty well covered, whether he goes right or not, and seeing as Brayton had penetration on the right anyway I don't see how rolling that way would have helped. As he rolls left he has Stevens open for about a second, but it would have been a tough throw and catch (although Stevens has shown he can make that tough catch). All in all it was pretty well defended. The best chance on that pay might have been to hit Askew in the flat. Even though there was at least one man between him and the endzone, Askew isn't easy to tackle and might have bulled his way in.

Coulda shoulda woulda. It's over now so maybe this thread will be the last of it.

RedAlert

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#5 : December 11, 2008, 01:09:02 PM

Geezus keep, you have the world's best avatars..


If we switched the first two plays, I bet we score a TD. Maybe even on 1st down with Carolina still shell shocked and on thier heels after the bomb that got us there right before...

DavyJonesLocker

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#6 : December 11, 2008, 01:10:55 PM

Agreed that the first play didn't bother me as much as the 3rd down play. It should have been a Caddy run
Shoulda coulda woulda. The play may have worked, we'll never know. Gilmore was wide freaking open at exactly the same time Garica panicked and vacated left. I will go on record as stating I think Gruden called a good play there, and maybe a different style(I won't say better, can of worms still closed) QB may have made the difference. I wouldn't have been opposed to a run call there, but this play design worked, Gilmore was drooling for the pass.


DavyJonesLocker

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#7 : December 11, 2008, 01:16:17 PM

On third down the play-fake was weak but it did suck in Beason and Diggs. Smith was open in the middle of the endzone in between the zone but as we know Garcia can't see over the line, so he didn't see him. Everything else is pretty well covered, whether he goes right or not, and seeing as Brayton had penetration on the right anyway I don't see how rolling that way would have helped. As he rolls left he has Stevens open for about a second, but it would have been a tough throw and catch (although Stevens has shown he can make that tough catch). All in all it was pretty well defended. The best chance on that pay might have been to hit Askew in the flat. Even though there was at least one man between him and the endzone, Askew isn't easy to tackle and might have bulled his way in.

Coulda shoulda woulda. It's over now so maybe this thread will be the last of it.
Re-watch it again. Gilmore was wide open, before the pressure came. Watch it from the camera angle that hovers above the field during ESPN's replay. Stevens may have been open for a second, but with Garcia running to his left, he wasn't ready to throw the ball until he turned his shoulders, and by then Stevens wasn't open. The fact remains, by running left, he took 3 of his possible 4 targets away.

keeponbucn

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#8 : December 11, 2008, 01:18:31 PM

Agreed that the first play didn't bother me as much as the 3rd down play. It should have been a Caddy run
Shoulda coulda woulda. The play may have worked, we'll never know. Gilmore was wide freaking open at exactly the same time Garica panicked and vacated left. I will go on record as stating I think Gruden called a good play there, and maybe a different style(I won't say better, can of worms still closed) QB may have made the difference. I wouldn't have been opposed to a run call there, but this play design worked, Gilmore was drooling for the pass.




I'm a big Gruden guy and saw Gil open, the play was executed correctly. My thought was while watching was that Gruden would run it on 3rd down, Caddy is a good short-yardage RB.

Or he may have called that play because Caddy almost fumbled, again, on the 2nd down play.

jeanclaudtransam

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#9 : December 11, 2008, 01:41:56 PM

On third down the play-fake was weak but it did suck in Beason and Diggs. Smith was open in the middle of the endzone in between the zone but as we know Garcia can't see over the line, so he didn't see him. Everything else is pretty well covered, whether he goes right or not, and seeing as Brayton had penetration on the right anyway I don't see how rolling that way would have helped. As he rolls left he has Stevens open for about a second, but it would have been a tough throw and catch (although Stevens has shown he can make that tough catch). All in all it was pretty well defended. The best chance on that pay might have been to hit Askew in the flat. Even though there was at least one man between him and the endzone, Askew isn't easy to tackle and might have bulled his way in.

Coulda shoulda woulda. It's over now so maybe this thread will be the last of it.
Re-watch it again. Gilmore was wide open, before the pressure came. Watch it from the camera angle that hovers above the field during ESPN's replay. Stevens may have been open for a second, but with Garcia running to his left, he wasn't ready to throw the ball until he turned his shoulders, and by then Stevens wasn't open. The fact remains, by running left, he took 3 of his possible 4 targets away.

I see it now. It was a bit of a tight window but notice that Garcia didn't even look there as it was in the same line of sight as Smith was. Garcia can't see over the blockers so those guys are basically invisible to him.

fishman

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#10 : December 11, 2008, 01:51:31 PM

reg #3, Garcia gets antsy on every damn play. Every play. At times, it's his strength and other times, it's a weakness. Personally, it drives me ape$hit to watch him play. I'd prefer Griese if he wasn't so turnover prone. I can only imagine how Gruden feels. He's designing plays that I'm sure more than half of the time are not executed the way he wants them to be.


"The reality is we came in with a bad salary cap situation and we left with some $50 million under the cap, so it's not like we went out and spent a lot of money on players." JG

4bucs

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#11 : December 11, 2008, 02:03:13 PM

we should have ran the ball 4 times with Askew carrying or blocking for Cadillac...to bad we wasted our challenge or else that ball is spoted on the 1 yd line.

olafberserker

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#12 : December 11, 2008, 02:05:18 PM

Smith was open ... the play worked ... Garcia/Smith didn't get it done


It's Thursday for crying out loud.  When are you guys going to get over it and move on?

DavyJonesLocker

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#13 : December 11, 2008, 02:15:16 PM

Smith was open
Wrong!!!! Mistaken!! Fallacy!! Misunderstanding!!

olafberserker

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#14 : December 11, 2008, 02:19:23 PM

Smith was open
Wrong!!!! Mistaken!! Fallacy!! Misunderstanding!!

he was open .. ball should have been caught ... start another thread on the topic why don't ya
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