You make the call

[Badabing]

Garcia is better than Griese in every category except sacks and you think we would have won the Dallas game?

While I respect your opinion, if we all agreed, there would be no need for a message board.

I hear ya, I just don't understand why one would think Griese is better? I lie, you lie, but the stats don't lie.

I could see, if knowing nothing about football, one would think McCown was better...but at least you could hold onto that theory because he hasn't played much and is a question mark. Could be Dan Marino. Could be Ryan Leaf. No one will ever know.

With Griese, we saw how bad he was....and to even remotely think that he gives us a better chance to win than Garcia does...well...idk but I'm glad Gruden woke up and smelled the coffee. I was worried in the beginning of the year that Gruden had lost his mind, but at least once he saw Griese play, he went back to Garcia.

Who said Griese was better? They're both mediocre. And Gruden went back to Jeff because of injury, not choice.

Yah, you have to wonder if Griese would still be the guy had he not gotten hurt? I think Garcia's career would be over after 2008 had Griese not gotten hurt.

Garcia was put up to #2 for the Denver game.  Why do you think that was?  Was McCown not getting the job done as the #2?  No.  Gruden was upset with Griese's INTs and realized that "hey we are winning inspite of this QB".  If he slips up, I'll put in Garcia.  well, the offense wasn't doing anything against Denver and Griese took a hit.  He was sacked and he is healthy.  He got hurt just like Garcia got hurt.

Do you honestly think Griese is still hurt off of that hit?  haha come on man...how old are you?

[Boid Fink]

Griese...yeah. �He doesn't take the sack. �He just gives up big field position, and points with his weak armed INTs.

Yeah...I think that would make me a hardcore "Jeffrican". �Sounds like a smarter bunch than "realists" who post drivel like this. �Just saying, once again, that to call one group a name, while considering yourself better because of your subjective thought process is pretty goofy. �And seems to be the norm lately for some of these so called Prohets of Phootball.

Yeah, because 3 and outs don't give up field position right? Nice way to start off that Panthers game Monday night.  

Thispost is funny.  Three and outs versus a pick 6 or INT...hmmm...watch ball much?

Think first.  Three and outs and punting the ball away is far far better than to throw a pick and give up a certain 3 points, or 6 with Griese.  That loss MOnday was a direct result of the defense.  End of story.  Garcia had a nice game.  He threw it deep.  For style points, it was not a work of art, but for blue collar results, he got the job done.  Garcia is not to be confused with Chris Simms and his magnificent deep balls...lol...

[DavyJonesLocker]

Is there any reason to insult? Or imply something that has to do with age? If Griese wasn't still hurt, you don't think he wouldn't at least be the emergency QB, and not Josh Johnson? Last time they showed Griese on the sidelines he was in street clothes.

[cheveliar]

I'm sick of the debate of G vs G with Coach G thrown in for malice/effect of the argument.  Everyone of us has a thought of who or what they want under center.  I posed the question, but Doc was cool enough to pick up the mantra and prove the theory right.  I was trying to get my "boys" of the list of offensive suspects.  

If I'm honest, I like Brian better only because this line was built to protect a pocket passer.  Those of you who will recall the games this season, with Chi-town being the model, the pocket has been there.  And it has been well formed with room to step up into and deliver the ball from.  There are logical reasons I think he gets happy feet.  I went back and watched the debacle and saw him start to move his feet and go no where.  I can't believe that is proper mechanics and gives you the best chance to throw a strike.  But I also recognize there are times he can't see or wants to give a receiver another second to get open.  Logical, I get both of the latter.  But not to sit there and survey when you have the time and sightline bothers me...

[dbucfan]

Each of the G boys has strong points and weak points - a damn shame neither can step up their performance to a point where the buccs didn't have a controversy

[DavyJonesLocker]

Griese...yeah. �He doesn't take the sack. �He just gives up big field position, and points with his weak armed INTs.

Yeah...I think that would make me a hardcore "Jeffrican". �Sounds like a smarter bunch than "realists" who post drivel like this. �Just saying, once again, that to call one group a name, while considering yourself better because of your subjective thought process is pretty goofy. �And seems to be the norm lately for some of these so called Prohets of Phootball.

Yeah, because 3 and outs don't give up field position right? Nice way to start off that Panthers game Monday night. �

Thispost is funny. �Three and outs versus a pick 6 or INT...hmmm...watch ball much?

Think first.  Three and outs and punting the ball away is far far better than to throw a pick and give up a certain 3 points, or 6 with Griese.  That loss MOnday was a direct result of the defense.  End of story.  Garcia had a nice game.  He threw it deep.  For style points, it was not a work of art, but for blue collar results, he got the job done.  Garcia is not to be confused with Chris Simms and his magnificent deep balls...lol...

Pick 6 has nothing to do with Field position. If you want to get technical seeing as you're trying to be a smartazz....it gives us the ball back.

[Boid Fink]

I'm sick of the debate of G vs G with Coach G thrown in for malice/effect of the argument.  Everyone of us has a thought of who or what they want under center.  I posed the question, but Doc was cool enough to pick up the mantra and prove the theory right.  I was trying to get my "boys" of the list of offensive suspects.  

If I'm honest, I like Brian better only because this line was built to protect a pocket passer.  Those of you who will recall the games this season, with Chi-town being the model, the pocket has been there.  And it has been well formed with room to step up into and deliver the ball from.  There are logical reasons I think he gets happy feet.  I went back and watched the debacle and saw him start to move his feet and go no where.  I can't believe that is proper mechanics and gives you the best chance to throw a strike.  But I also recognize there are times he can't see or wants to give a receiver another second to get open.  Logical, I get both of the latter.  But not to sit there and survey when you have the time and sightline bothers me...

So if you agree that maybe he has a Line of Sight problem, how can he sit there and survey?  What is he going to see?  The backs of his linemans jersey's?

I agree with you...the debate is tiresome.  At elast we understand strength V. Weakness.  Both players.  All three players.

Some are firmly rammed up their own you know what to see that they are the ones who fail to see the players for what they are.

McCown?  Holds ball too long.  Poor field awareness.  Great arm, tall, runs well.

Griese?  Scared to make more than two reads.  Throws waaay too fast, too short, and when he risks a midranger, it is usually shabby, and is prone to INTs that give up big time field position.  Is smart though.

Garcia?  Has happy feet, hesitant to throw it deep because arm strength is clearly an issue.  Better at the checkdown than Griese, but not by much.  Has great mobility in the pocket, although that is deemed both a negative and a positive.  Teammates like him.  Is trustworthy with the ball.

[Boid Fink]

Griese...yeah. �He doesn't take the sack. �He just gives up big field position, and points with his weak armed INTs.

Yeah...I think that would make me a hardcore "Jeffrican". �Sounds like a smarter bunch than "realists" who post drivel like this. �Just saying, once again, that to call one group a name, while considering yourself better because of your subjective thought process is pretty goofy. �And seems to be the norm lately for some of these so called Prohets of Phootball.

Yeah, because 3 and outs don't give up field position right? Nice way to start off that Panthers game Monday night. �

Thispost is funny. �Three and outs versus a pick 6 or INT...hmmm...watch ball much?

Think first.  Three and outs and punting the ball away is far far better than to throw a pick and give up a certain 3 points, or 6 with Griese.  That loss MOnday was a direct result of the defense.  End of story.  Garcia had a nice game.  He threw it deep.  For style points, it was not a work of art, but for blue collar results, he got the job done.  Garcia is not to be confused with Chris Simms and his magnificent deep balls...lol...

Pick 6 has nothing to do with Field position. If you want to get technical seeing as you're trying to be a smartazz....it gives us the ball back.

Wow.  Just wow.

Dude, I would rather have poor field position than to surrender 6.  Technical or not, in the moment does it matter?

Your failure to grasp a concept is astounding.

[Badabing]

I'm sick of the debate of G vs G with Coach G thrown in for malice/effect of the argument.  Everyone of us has a thought of who or what they want under center.  I posed the question, but Doc was cool enough to pick up the mantra and prove the theory right.  I was trying to get my "boys" of the list of offensive suspects.  

If I'm honest, I like Brian better only because this line was built to protect a pocket passer.  Those of you who will recall the games this season, with Chi-town being the model, the pocket has been there.  And it has been well formed with room to step up into and deliver the ball from.  There are logical reasons I think he gets happy feet.  I went back and watched the debacle and saw him start to move his feet and go no where.  I can't believe that is proper mechanics and gives you the best chance to throw a strike.  But I also recognize there are times he can't see or wants to give a receiver another second to get open.  Logical, I get both of the latter.  But not to sit there and survey when you have the time and sightline bothers me...

see thats a solid post right there.  Gives reasoning behind why he thinks Griese would be better and not just that "Garcia smells like a rat"

I respectully disagree with you ofcourse haha...

I understand what your saying about the pocket passer thing, but Griese was just flat out awful this year.  Thank god for our defense and run game.  The fact that we almost lost the Bears and Packers game when we dominated the game on D, really made me hope that Gruden would get his act together and promote Garcia to atleast #2.  Well the next week, what did he do.


I'm not saying the coach is always right, but I would say the coaches in practice know more about the subject than do us.  Also, you ask anyone who isn't a Bucs Fan who the Bucs should start at QB.  I guarentee that atleast 9 out of every 10 would say Jeff.

I live in Philly area and there are alot of ppl believe it or not that rather see Kolb in there over McNabb.  So you can't go to your neighbors in Tampa b/c it seems that fans in the areas their teams are in hate the starting QB.

[bradentonian]

this line was built to protect a pocket passer. �

I thought it was built to run the ball?  Maybe if we did more of that these kinds of debates would be moot.

[DavyJonesLocker]

I'm sick of the debate of G vs G with Coach G thrown in for malice/effect of the argument. �Everyone of us has a thought of who or what they want under center. �I posed the question, but Doc was cool enough to pick up the mantra and prove the theory right. �I was trying to get my "boys" of the list of offensive suspects. �

If I'm honest, I like Brian better only because this line was built to protect a pocket passer. �Those of you who will recall the games this season, with Chi-town being the model, the pocket has been there. �And it has been well formed with room to step up into and deliver the ball from. �There are logical reasons I think he gets happy feet. �I went back and watched the debacle and saw him start to move his feet and go no where. �I can't believe that is proper mechanics and gives you the best chance to throw a strike. �But I also recognize there are times he can't see or wants to give a receiver another second to get open. �Logical, I get both of the latter. �But not to sit there and survey when you have the time and sightline bothers me...

So if you agree that maybe he has a Line of Sight problem, how can he sit there and survey? �What is he going to see? �The backs of his linemans jersey's?

I agree with you...the debate is tiresome. �At elast we understand strength V. Weakness. �Both players. �All three players.

Some are firmly rammed up their own you know what to see that they are the ones who fail to see the players for what they are.

McCown? �Holds ball too long. �Poor field awareness. �Great arm, tall, runs well.

Griese? �Scared to make more than two reads. �Throws waaay too fast, too short, and when he risks a midranger, it is usually shabby, and is prone to INTs that give up big time field position. �Is smart though.

Garcia? �Has happy feet, hesitant to throw it deep because arm strength is clearly an issue. �Better at the checkdown than Griese, but not by much. �Has great mobility in the pocket, although that is deemed both a negative and a positive. �Teammates like him. �Is trustworthy with the ball.

These highlighted faults can be fixed and overcome with time and experience. Hence my stance that we have a chance to be better with McCown. Garcia and Griese's faults are entrenched and ingrained in their being, and are what they are. I hope you see how that argument can not be disputed. I personally have never said McCown is or will be better. Only that at this point they are all equal with only McCown having a real possibility of getting better.

[cheveliar]

I thought I mentioned that him moving because of line of sight was legit?  I mean only a hater would blame the guy for being a runt.  LOL

For me Brian throws to many picks.  Period.  I think he has great command of this offense.  I also think the guys trust him being the veteran he is.  Garcia has the mobility you love and defenses hate.  But I think he uses the run as a crutch.  Sort of feels like a double edged sword at times...

[Boid Fink]

I'm sick of the debate of G vs G with Coach G thrown in for malice/effect of the argument. �Everyone of us has a thought of who or what they want under center. �I posed the question, but Doc was cool enough to pick up the mantra and prove the theory right. �I was trying to get my "boys" of the list of offensive suspects. �

If I'm honest, I like Brian better only because this line was built to protect a pocket passer. �Those of you who will recall the games this season, with Chi-town being the model, the pocket has been there. �And it has been well formed with room to step up into and deliver the ball from. �There are logical reasons I think he gets happy feet. �I went back and watched the debacle and saw him start to move his feet and go no where. �I can't believe that is proper mechanics and gives you the best chance to throw a strike. �But I also recognize there are times he can't see or wants to give a receiver another second to get open. �Logical, I get both of the latter. �But not to sit there and survey when you have the time and sightline bothers me...

So if you agree that maybe he has a Line of Sight problem, how can he sit there and survey? �What is he going to see? �The backs of his linemans jersey's?

I agree with you...the debate is tiresome. �At elast we understand strength V. Weakness. �Both players. �All three players.

Some are firmly rammed up their own you know what to see that they are the ones who fail to see the players for what they are.

McCown? �Holds ball too long. �Poor field awareness. �Great arm, tall, runs well.

Griese? �Scared to make more than two reads. �Throws waaay too fast, too short, and when he risks a midranger, it is usually shabby, and is prone to INTs that give up big time field position. �Is smart though.

Garcia? �Has happy feet, hesitant to throw it deep because arm strength is clearly an issue. �Better at the checkdown than Griese, but not by much. �Has great mobility in the pocket, although that is deemed both a negative and a positive. �Teammates like him. �Is trustworthy with the ball.

These highlighted faults can be fixed and overcome with time and experience. Hence my stance that we have a chance to be better with McCown. Garcia and Griese's faults are entrenched and ingrained in their being, and are what they are. I hope you see how that argument can not be disputed. I personally have never said McCown is or will be better. Only that at this point they are all equal with only McCown having a real possibility of getting better.

Problem with McCown is, he has been in this system for YEARS and you would think these issues were corrected by now.  But obviously, based on the fact he is the #3, means he has clearly, someissues with running the offense the way Gruden sees fit...

Now to stir up another debate...

Is it Gruden's fault that McCown, if his issues are correctable with relative ease, is the reason why the team lacks a better QB?  I think not.  I think as you allude to, the entrenchment is the scary part.  What if Luke is simply a meathead and cannot make reads faster than he has shown?

I agree, playing more is the only way to prove something.  In the preseason he lacked it.  He has been familiar with Gruden and loves him, for years now.  I hope Luke goes in and wins, but I think Garcia plays this Sunday.  And the minute Luke hangs on to the ball for too long, and starts reeling backwards, will he be accused of being scared to throw the ball?  We'll see in time.

The entire game is a mystery, and I am glad the lockerroom is not in such disarray, as it is with some of the posters mindsets.

[Boid Fink]

I thought I mentioned that him moving because of line of sight was legit?  I mean only a hater would blame the guy for being a runt.  LOL

For me Brian throws to many picks.  Period.  I think he has great command of this offense.  I also think the guys trust him being the veteran he is.  Garcia has the mobility you love and defenses hate.  But I think he uses the run as a crutch.  Sort of feels like a double edged sword at times...

Yup.  Said that in my post in reply to your post.

I thought you said he cannot see, but he runs too much because he cannot see...seems like a quixotic situation to me.  In essence, he might HAVE to run to see, is what you said right?  And since he does things so azz backwards (dives rather than slides despite being a runt), runs in the pocket even though it is stable...that is what Garcia has made a career from.  I never expected him to be a pocket guy.  To think so was to be blind to the game.

[DavyJonesLocker]

How could he correct his issues from the sideline? I will not say Gruden's lack of confidence in young QB's is wrong or right. But can you disagree that it has inhibited McCowns development? Maybe the guy just needs 8 straight games or so of knowing he's the guy to take that leap.

Many people here said Ryan and Flacco sucked and were busts after their 2nd or 3rd game. It takes time under real pressure with real bullets flying. Not scout team garbage time.