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BucsGuru

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#15 : January 01, 2009, 04:21:01 PM

I'll never forget it.

Jones walks and Garner comes in and does nothing but take our money.

Let's face it, Gruden would have never given Graham a chance had it not been for injury.  I could understand that logic if the person who was starting before Graham was just as good or better, but we are talking about Pittman!?

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#16 : January 01, 2009, 04:44:41 PM

fishman, Benson's actually played pretty well for Cincinnati this season, but not well enough to remove the bust label on his head.

\"We are frustrated at not making the playoffs. It is a good start. That is all it is. It is a good start for something that we are going to be in the future. - Josh Freeman

bradentonian

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#17 : January 01, 2009, 05:02:21 PM

One of GrAllen's biggest mistakes here IMO


LFO

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#18 : January 01, 2009, 06:16:40 PM

Meanwhile, we take an old guy fresh off the operating table and give him more $$ than TJ.

http://sports.espn.go.com/nfl/news/story?id=1754974

The decision was made to keep Pittman over TJ, and ok, perhaps that was a mistake.  But at the time I think you could argue Pittman was the more complete player.  TJ other than a few games at the end of 2003 had not shown anything in 4 years.  Garner was also coming off a season averaging 4.6 a carry.  garner was also getting essentially a 1 year deal.  I don't think we ever had a shot with TJ.  He seemed intent on getting a starting job, and he was going to share time with Pittman here.  I think to say we got rid of TJ for Garner is inaccurate.  I doubt Garner was even on the mind of the FO until TJ left. 

To be fair, Chicago wasn't very impressed with TJ either.  They did everything they could to replace him (drafting Benson), then let him go when again, he wanted out for a feature job.

 I think TJ leaving was a lot more to do with him wanting to be "the man" than him not being wanted or Garner signed over him.  If anything, we chose Pittman over him which again, at that time wasn't a bad move based on the history of the 2. 

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#19 : January 01, 2009, 06:23:14 PM

I think to say we got rid of TJ for Garner is inaccurate.  I doubt Garner was even on the mind of the FO until TJ left. 

Inaccurate.  The rumors were thick on Garner to Tampa before FA started.  Garner made the decision to void the final year of his contract so Tampa could sign him.  I remember reading at the time that one of Tampa's medical staff was involved in his knee surgery.


To be fair, Chicago wasn't very impressed with TJ either.  They did everything they could to replace him (drafting Benson), then let him go when again, he wanted out for a feature job.

Chicago picked him up because their OC wanted him in a Faulk-like dual-threat role.  When Ron Turner came on board as OC in 2005 he wanted a pure pounder, which is why they took Benson.


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#20 : January 01, 2009, 06:30:33 PM

I think to say we got rid of TJ for Garner is inaccurate.  I doubt Garner was even on the mind of the FO until TJ left. 

Inaccurate.  The rumors were thick on Garner to Tampa before FA started.  Garner made the decision to void the final year of his contract so Tampa could sign him.  I remember reading at the time that one of Tampa's medical staff was involved in his knee surgery.


To be fair, Chicago wasn't very impressed with TJ either.  They did everything they could to replace him (drafting Benson), then let him go when again, he wanted out for a feature job.

Chicago picked him up because their OC wanted him in a Faulk-like dual-threat role.  When Ron Turner came on board as OC in 2005 he wanted a pure pounder, which is why they took Benson.

TJ signed just after midnight pretty much.  He did not want to share with Pittman.

If you want to complain we kept Pittman over TJ, fine (although Pittman was coming off a 1400 total yard season and TJ was a bust in AZ and had a few good games here).  But Garner was NOT the reason we let TJ go.  Really, I think it was all TJ...he was done here and wanted to go be "the man."  He knew with Pittman here that wouldn't happen. Not to mention, everyone's favorite overrated Alstott. 

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#21 : January 01, 2009, 06:39:32 PM

TJ signed just after midnight pretty much.  He did not want to share with Pittman.

If you want to complain we kept Pittman over TJ, fine (although Pittman was coming off a 1400 total yard season and TJ was a bust in AZ and had a few good games here).  But Garner was NOT the reason we let TJ go.  Really, I think it was all TJ...he was done here and wanted to go be "the man."  He knew with Pittman here that wouldn't happen. Not to mention, everyone's favorite overrated Alstott. 
He rightly knew he was better than Pittman, Garner, and Alstott. As has often been the case, Gruden is more comfortable with mediocre depth than front line star players.

FRG is the most logical poster on this board.  You guys just don\'t like where the logical conclusions take you.

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#22 : January 01, 2009, 06:42:11 PM

I went and looked up this guy's stats today (after seeing him comment about B Favre). This guy has been a horse the last 5 years averaging above 1100 yards a season, plenty of touchdowns, a decent receiving back and durable as all get out (starts no less than 14 games 5 years in a row). Why did we not keep him? I know the Bucs didnt have a lot of cap room back then and didn't want to overpay. But is this not just another example of this team making bad personnel moves the last 5/6 years? Sure McKay screwed our cap up to win a Super Bowl but at least we won with his moves. Where are we at right now? 50 million under the cap and more needs on this team in as long as I can remember... And on a side note, I like a player not intimidated to speak out on record and say what he feels about Brett Favre. Good for him. That shows leadership off the field alongside his great on the field play. Reasonable to say BA and JG whiffed on that one yet again.



as i recall, he signed with chicago very early in FA.  similar to how Faine signed with us.  its not as if he was a FA for weeks and we did nothing about it.  i suppose you could make the case that we should have signed him to an extension prior to the start of FA though.  i dont know if we  tried to do so. 

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#23 : January 01, 2009, 06:46:51 PM

Whatever LFO.......nothing is the coaches fault according to you.

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#24 : January 01, 2009, 06:49:02 PM

I went and looked up this guy's stats today (after seeing him comment about B Favre). This guy has been a horse the last 5 years averaging above 1100 yards a season, plenty of touchdowns, a decent receiving back and durable as all get out (starts no less than 14 games 5 years in a row). Why did we not keep him? I know the Bucs didnt have a lot of cap room back then and didn't want to overpay. But is this not just another example of this team making bad personnel moves the last 5/6 years? Sure McKay screwed our cap up to win a Super Bowl but at least we won with his moves. Where are we at right now? 50 million under the cap and more needs on this team in as long as I can remember... And on a side note, I like a player not intimidated to speak out on record and say what he feels about Brett Favre. Good for him. That shows leadership off the field alongside his great on the field play. Reasonable to say BA and JG whiffed on that one yet again.



as i recall, he signed with chicago very early in FA.  similar to how Faine signed with us.  its not as if he was a FA for weeks and we did nothing about it.  i suppose you could make the case that we should have signed him to an extension prior to the start of FA though.  i dont know if we  tried to do so.  

I'm not calling him a "chicken" but it appeared TJ wanted to go to a place where he could be the feature guy and not have to share or earn carries.  I don't think we ever had a realistic shot at signing him, as he was intent on going somewhere with no competition.  I think that is clear, again, by his wanting out of Chicago after they brought someone in.  

Of course, I bet if we signed TJ, cut Alstott at that time people around Tampa Bay would have torched the place and hung Gruden.  I am sure Gruden would have much rather gotten rid of Mark, but the fear of people in the area killing him probably kept him from doing so........

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#25 : January 01, 2009, 06:52:10 PM

Whatever LFO.......nothing is the coaches fault according to you.

No, just not "everything" like you and some other Gruden haters would lead us to believe. 

Of course, everyone ran Dungy out of town, and now many wish he were here and supposedly love him.  Such revisionists Bucs fans are. 

If I recall, just in the last couple years many Giants fans and players hated Coughlin and wanted him gone.  Think they feel that way now? 

Just saying, the grass isn't always greener on the other side.  It is easy to sit here and say "get rid of this guy and get this guy."   It is easy to look back on a lot of things and say "we should have done this or that."  But usually when that happens in a few more years people will be praying they had it the old way. 



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#26 : January 01, 2009, 06:57:42 PM

As stated above, Garner bought out of Oakland..... and it was widely known he was coming here. It was also known that dude was fresh off the operating table AND we gave him more upfront $$ than a younger TJ got from Chicago.


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#27 : January 01, 2009, 06:58:42 PM

If I recall, just in the last couple years many Giants fans and players hated Coughlin and wanted him gone.  Think they feel that way now? 
It was widely reported Coughlin went into 2007 with a new attitude and personality and the players responded very positively. If he maintained being the pre-2007 Coughlin the players may have quit on him.

FRG is the most logical poster on this board.  You guys just don\'t like where the logical conclusions take you.

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#28 : January 01, 2009, 07:00:12 PM

What had TJ shown in 4 years that he was worth a damn?  He got ran out of Arizona for chrissakes.  So, because he had a few good games he was supposed to replace Pittman who had a 1400 total yard season?

TJ didn't want to stay and "earn" PT.  He wanted to go where he could get money and a starting job.  Hey, i don't blame him, why work for it when you can get it for nothing?  And then, again, when Chicago drafted a RB to replace/share time with him, what did he do?  Wanted to run away again. 

TJ leaving was on TJ...not on Gruden, Allen, or anyone else. 
That's what you pay scouts and coaches to do - to project what college and pro players are going to do in the future. But we're pretty used to the Bucs' scouts and coaches getting those projections wrong....

FRG is the most logical poster on this board.  You guys just don\'t like where the logical conclusions take you.

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#29 : January 01, 2009, 07:16:06 PM

What had TJ shown in 4 years that he was worth a damn?  He got ran out of Arizona for chrissakes.  So, because he had a few good games he was supposed to replace Pittman who had a 1400 total yard season?

TJ didn't want to stay and "earn" PT.  He wanted to go where he could get money and a starting job.  Hey, i don't blame him, why work for it when you can get it for nothing?  And then, again, when Chicago drafted a RB to replace/share time with him, what did he do?  Wanted to run away again. 

TJ leaving was on TJ...not on Gruden, Allen, or anyone else. 
That's what you pay scouts and coaches to do - to project what college and pro players are going to do in the future. But we're pretty used to the Bucs' scouts and coaches getting those projections wrong....

I'd agree on the scouts, in general.  I think it is foolish to expect Gruden or other coaches to make assessments all on their own. There are scouts who get paid to put recommendations after extensive scouting of players...far more time and effort they are able to put in than the HC, GM, or position coaches. 

I think we do make some very nice late picks/pickups at times (Bryant, Tanard for instance) but some glaring poor ones as well (Djax for instance).  But i would agree we probably could use an overhall in scouting.

But really, I don't blame them for feeling Pittman was better than TJ at that time.  It is easy to look back and say different...but I think TJ was gone regardless.....for reasons already stated. 
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